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Re: Is the fruit of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature sinful and selfish? [Re: James Saptenno] #144839
08/26/12 02:49 PM
08/26/12 02:49 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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How is it possible for unbelievers to experience agape love? Isn't agape love a fruit of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature?

Re: Is the fruit of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature sinful and selfish? [Re: Mountain Man] #144851
08/26/12 07:19 PM
08/26/12 07:19 PM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
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Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
How is it possible for unbelievers to experience agape love? Isn't agape love a fruit of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature?


Romans 2:
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law. 13 (For it is not the hearers of the law who are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, they, not having the law, are a law unto themselves, 15 which shows the work of the law written in their hearts,their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts between accusing and excusing one another.) 16 Thus will it be on the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my Gospel.

What thing contained in the law? The agape love of God. What is written in their hearts? The agape love of God which fulfill the righteous demands of the law.

Re: Is the fruit of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature sinful and selfish? [Re: James Saptenno] #144858
08/27/12 02:20 PM
08/27/12 02:20 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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James, are you certain the people Paul named in Romans 2:13-15 are unbelievers?

Re: Is the fruit of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature sinful and selfish? [Re: Mountain Man] #144894
08/28/12 04:21 PM
08/28/12 04:21 PM
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kland  Offline
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What I hear you suggesting is, can believers not have the law?
Can people be saved without the law.
Can people be saved who are not believers.
Can people have the law written on their hearts, yet be without the law. Or is it only the work of the law written?

What is, "believers"?
Can someone believe in Christ without knowing who He is?
Or is Paul talking about something else?

Re: Is the fruit of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature sinful and selfish? [Re: kland] #144905
08/29/12 12:16 AM
08/29/12 12:16 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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"Everyone that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God." 1 John 4:7.

Those whom Christ commends in the judgment may have known little of theology, but they have cherished His principles. Through the influence of the divine Spirit they have been a blessing to those about them. Even among the heathen are those who have cherished the spirit of kindness; before the words of life had fallen upon their ears, they have befriended the missionaries, even ministering to them at the peril of their own lives. Among the heathen are those who worship God ignorantly, those to whom the light is never brought by human instrumentality, yet they will not perish. Though ignorant of the written law of God, they have heard His voice speaking to them in nature, and have done the things that the law required. Their works are evidence that the Holy Spirit has touched their hearts, and they are recognized as the children of God. {DA 638.2}

Re: Is the fruit of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature sinful and selfish? [Re: kland] #144912
08/29/12 01:29 AM
08/29/12 01:29 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: kland
What I hear you suggesting is, can believers not have the law?
Can people be saved without the law.
Can people be saved who are not believers.
Can people have the law written on their hearts, yet be without the law. Or is it only the work of the law written?

What is, "believers"?
Can someone believe in Christ without knowing who He is?
Or is Paul talking about something else?


Paul is contrasting the Jews who have the scriptures (the word "law" is often used to include whole books of the Bible) and those who do not have this information.

In simplified paraphrased language --


2:14 For when the Gentiles, who don't have the scriptures, do by nature the things commanded in the scriptures, even though they have never read the scriptures, have a law developed in themselves:
2:15 This shows the work (which we know is the work of the Holy Spirit) that the law is written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, as their thoughts compell them to encourage others to stop doing evil and encourage them to do good.
2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Re: Is the fruit of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature sinful and selfish? [Re: Mountain Man] #144967
09/01/12 05:42 AM
09/01/12 05:42 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
James, are you certain the people Paul named in Romans 2:13-15 are unbelievers?


Yes. They who do not have the law, do not know about Christ.

How could they be believers, for those who knew Christ, must keep his law.

Re: Is the fruit of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature sinful and selfish? [Re: dedication] #144968
09/01/12 05:43 AM
09/01/12 05:43 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: kland
What I hear you suggesting is, can believers not have the law?
Can people be saved without the law.
Can people be saved who are not believers.
Can people have the law written on their hearts, yet be without the law. Or is it only the work of the law written?

What is, "believers"?
Can someone believe in Christ without knowing who He is?
Or is Paul talking about something else?


Paul is contrasting the Jews who have the scriptures (the word "law" is often used to include whole books of the Bible) and those who do not have this information.

In simplified paraphrased language --


2:14 For when the Gentiles, who don't have the scriptures, do by nature the things commanded in the scriptures, even though they have never read the scriptures, have a law developed in themselves:
2:15 This shows the work (which we know is the work of the Holy Spirit) that the law is written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, as their thoughts compell them to encourage others to stop doing evil and encourage them to do good.
2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


Clear and simple.

These people are unbelievers.

Re: Is the fruit of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature sinful and selfish? [Re: James Saptenno] #144973
09/01/12 02:29 PM
09/01/12 02:29 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: James Saptenno
M: James, are you certain the people Paul named in Romans 2:13-15 are unbelievers?

J: Yes. They who do not have the law, do not know about Christ. How could they be believers, for those who knew Christ, must keep his law.

They don't know Jesus by name, but Jesus knows them by name. He dwells in their hearts as evidenced by the fact their thoughts, words, and deeds harmonize with the law. No one can live in harmony with the law without Jesus abiding in their hearts. "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Re: Is the fruit of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature sinful and selfish? [Re: James Saptenno] #144984
09/01/12 06:18 PM
09/01/12 06:18 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
Originally Posted By: James Saptenno

What is the difference between faith and love (agape)?

A believer might have faith without love (1 Corinthians 13). An unbeliever might have love without faith (Romans 2).

Both are falling short of the love of God, and did sin.


Hebrews 11:6 ... "without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him."

So that means without faith one would not have Agape love.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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