I agree with GC.
That's the same with what I'm telling here.

If sin is only the breaking of God's commandments, then I might agree with MM view, but sin is also not doing the good thing we knew we must do. Since there is nothing good in me, How can I do the good things I must do? After the Spirit led me, there are still so many good things I didn't do for whatsoever reason, this makes me sins every day, but I can accept this because I will always fall short of the glory of God, I could never be perfected in the same way as Jesus is perfect. And I believe that Christ is not seeking the perfect one to be saved but sinners. He is not making a standard of life such as a perfect sinless state as a prerequisite for heaven, but he is willing to save sinners who believe in Him, whose righteousness is a righteousness in Christ by faith, he is not asking us to stand in our own righteousness as what is so called "the imparted", as an order to be saved. He knew and understood our weakness and the strength of sin.

Therefore, every one of us is saved by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ as a GIFT and not mixed with works even a joint cooperation works of the Spirit and your will.

Mr Saptenno, are you a devoted Seventh Day Adventist? Or are you here to see what kind of controversy you can stir up?

Was Jesus perfect? Was He a man? case closed.

According to everything you have said since the beginning of this thread I am not convinced that you are a true Seventh Day Adventist.

Here is what our Prophet said about this subject and if you reject it, I pray God awakens you before you are lost.

"The work of gaining salvation is one of copartnership, a joint operation. There is to be co-operation between God and the repentant sinner. This is necessary for the formation of right principles in the character. Man is to make earnest efforts to overcome that which hinders him from attaining to perfection. But he is wholly dependent upon God for success. Human effort of itself is not sufficient. Without the aid of divine power it avails nothing. God works and man works. Resistance of temptation must come from man, who must draw his power from God. On the one side there is infinite wisdom, compassion, and power; on the other, weakness, sinfulness, absolute helplessness. {AA 482.2}
God wishes us to have the mastery over ourselves. But He cannot help us without our consent and co-operation. The divine Spirit works through the powers and faculties given to man. Of ourselves, we are not able to bring the purposes and desires and inclinations into harmony with the will of God; but if we are “willing to be made willing,” the Saviour will accomplish this for us, “Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.” 2 Corinthians 10:5. {AA 482.3}

"None need fail of attaining, in his sphere, to perfection of Christian character. By the sacrifice of Christ, provision has been made for the believer to receive all things that pertain to life and godliness. God calls upon us to reach the standard of perfection and places before us the example of Christ’s character. In His humanity, perfected by a life of constant resistance of evil, the Saviour showed that through co-operation with Divinity, human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character. This is God’s assurance to us that we, too, may obtain complete victory. {AA 531.2}
Before the believer is held out the wonderful possibility of being like Christ, obedient to all the principles of the law. But of himself man is utterly unable to reach this condition. The holiness that God’s word declares he must have before he can be saved is the result of the working of divine grace as he bows in submission to the discipline and restraining influences of the Spirit of truth. Man’s obedience can be made perfect only by the incense of Christ’s righteousness, which fills with divine fragrance every act of obedience. The part of the Christian is to persevere in overcoming every fault. Constantly he is to pray to the Saviour to heal the disorders of his sin-sick soul. He has not the wisdom or the strength to overcome; these belong to the Lord, and He bestows them on those who in humiliation and contrition seek Him for help. {AA 532.1}

If you cannot grasp this one subject and instead argue against it, you are not a true Christian let alone an Seventh Day Adventist.

Thank you for bringing up so many interesting and important points. Balance is key. Thank you.

You wrote, "Do you not think people are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded when they do so to the absolute best of their knowledge?" No, of course not. Luther, for example, was not living in harmony with "all things whatsoever I have commanded you".

You wrote, "We are not counted as sinners for that which we do in total ignorance." Sin is the transgression of the law. Some sins are "sins of ignorance," nevertheless, they are sins. Jesus gave His life and blood to atone for sins of ignorance. God does not hold people accountable for truth they know not.

Why do people within the greatest church that has ever existed act as if God does not speak to us?

Would a God who loves us so much allow us to be ignorant of ANY sin in these last days? Are you seriously going to claim ignorance when our Father has been trying to get our attentions for EVERY sin we have ever committed, either willingly or ignorantly?

If you have the Spirit of Prophecy God will not leave you ignorant...PERIOD! There is not a day that goes by that the Holy Spirit does not warn me to keep me from sin, do you not have this Spirit prompting you not to sin even in thought? If you don't then I would question your sincerity in Christ because He does all He can to save me from my ignorance...because He is God and He loves me and wants me to know peace with Him. Sin cuts us off from God. Adam was CUT OFF for eating a piece of fruit. Do you think God works differently for us? He says it's OK now?

"We are now living in the great day of atonement. In the typical service, while the high priest was making the atonement for Israel, all were required to afflict their souls by repentance of sin and humiliation before the Lord, lest they be cut off from among the people. In like manner, all who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. There must be deep, faithful searching of heart. The light, frivolous spirit indulged by so many professed Christians must be put away. There is earnest warfare before all who would subdue the evil tendencies that strive for the mastery. The work of preparation is an individual work. We are not saved in groups. The purity and devotion of one will not offset the want of these qualities in another. Though all nations are to pass in judgment before God, yet He will examine the case of each individual with as close and searching scrutiny as if there were not another being upon the earth. Everyone must be tested and found without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. Solemn are the scenes connected with the closing work of the atonement. Momentous are the interests involved therein. The judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. For many years this work has been in progress. Soon—none know how soon—it will pass to the cases of the living [since 9/11]. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review. At this time above all others it behooves every soul to heed the Saviour’s admonition: “Watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.” Mark 13:33. {CCh 348.5}

Jesus promises He will not allow us to be tempted above His ability to empower us to recognize and resist it unto the honor and glory of God our Father. Thank you, Jesus. More importantly He also promises to empower us to grow in grace, to mature daily in the fruits of the Spirit. Not sinning is not the main goal. "Righteousness and true holiness," "perfecting holiness" is the primary goal. Let God be magnified.

Amen Brother M&M,

This quote sums it all up.

John 16:13(ESV)
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth, for He will not speak on his own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

The reason God gave us the Spirit of Prophecy is to guide us into all truth. Not some truth, or a majority of truth, or even 99% truth, but to ALL truth.

Almost everyone who logs into this website believes the end is very near. How much more time is there to get us into ALL truth?

Nearly everyone I know, the majority of people I meet believe sinning and repenting is normal growth in grace. They believe people experience rebirth first and then they spend the rest of their life gradually outgrowing sinful habits and practices but never really completely ridding themselves of sin. "I'm only human; nobody is perfect," they say, thus justifying, rationalizing sinning and repenting as if it is normal. God forbid!!!

We are to grow daily in spiritual loveliness. We shall fail often in our efforts to copy the divine Pattern. We shall often have to bow down to weep at the feet of Jesus, because of our shortcomings and mistakes; but we are not to be discouraged; we are to pray more fervently, believe more fully, and try again with more steadfastness to grow into the likeness of our Lord.--Selected Messages, book 1, pp. 336, 337. {YRP 64.5}

I believe in total victory over sin - not, however, as an instantaneous result of the new birth.

Rosangela,

Brother Mountain Man I believe was saying the same thing as your quote from Mrs White, but not, I believe, the same thing as your input there.

He said at the end "they say, thus justifying, rationalizing sinning and repenting as if it is normal. God forbid!!!"

Of course he would think repenting is normal if you sinned, so I would speculate he meant that "Justifying and rationalizing sinning" is not normal in the Spirit of Christ. Which is actually correct. He just worded it wrong.

"Come to Jesus, and receive rest and peace. You may have the blessing even now. Satan suggests that you are helpless and cannot bless yourself. It is true; you are helpless. But lift up Jesus before him: “I have a risen Saviour. In Him I trust, and He will never suffer me to be confounded. In His name I triumph. He is my righteousness and my crown of rejoicing.” Let no one here feel that his case is hopeless, for it is not. You may see that you are sinful and undone, but it is just on this account that you need a Saviour. If you have sins to confess, lose no time. These moments are golden. “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1 John 1:9. Those who hunger and thirst after righteousness will be filled, for Jesus has promised it. Precious Saviour! His arms are open to receive us, and His great heart of love is waiting to bless us. {CCh 48.4}
Some seem to feel that they must be on probation and must prove to the Lord that they are reformed, before they can claim His blessing. But these dear souls may claim the blessing even now. They must have His grace, the Spirit of Christ, to help their infirmities, or they cannot form a Christian character. Jesus loves to have us come to Him, just as we are—sinful, helpless, dependent. {CCh 48.5}
Repentance, as well as forgiveness, is the gift of God through Christ. It is through the influence of the Holy Spirit that we are convicted of sin and feel our need of pardon. None but the contrite are forgiven; but it is the grace of God that makes the heart penitent. He is acquainted with all our weaknesses and infirmities, and He will help us. {CCh 49.1}

{Here is where the majority are, including those instigating the argument against instant forgiveness as we have here. Please pay attention, this is the most blessed thing our Lord has taught me in His grace. Brother James}

"Some who come to God by repentance and confession, and even believe that their sins are forgiven, still fail of claiming, as they should, the promises of God. They do not see that Jesus is an ever-present Saviour; and they are not ready to commit the keeping of their souls to Him, relying upon Him to perfect the work of grace begun in their hearts. While they think they are committing themselves to God, there is a great deal of self-dependence. There are conscientious souls that trust partly to God and partly to themselves. They do not look to God, to be kept by His power, but depend upon watchfulness against temptation and the performance of certain duties for acceptance with Him. There are no victories in this kind of faith. Such persons toil to no purpose; their souls are in continual bondage, and they find no rest until their burdens are laid at the feet of Jesus. {CCh 49.2}

The reason that the majority of believers do not have victory over sin is because they do not walk in Christ, they get baptized and think they have to do everything themselves to resist temptation, and OF COURSE they are going to fail.

When we come to Christ in full submission, in complete reliance upon Him to forgive and save us, we are at that point already being led by the Holy Spirit, for NOTHING good comes from us. If we come to Christ we will be completely forgiven for any sin our past, not in our future. So if you leave the baptismal font and go out and sleep with someone who is not your wife, how repentant were you to begin with? This lack of conviction in the Spirit of Christ limits our faith in His power to forgive.

If you had EVER had an experience where you were led by the Spirit on your face for forgiveness, you would not be arguing this case.

Brother JSOT,

I've been discussing with MM for 8 years, so I'm sure my comment addresses his arguments. His interpretation of 1 John 3:6, 9 differs from mine.