Excellent observation and question. Thank you. I addressed this point above (#144948) in response to an earlier post. Like Luther, there are many people today who are ignorantly breaking the Sabbath. And, like Luther, they are saved. However, the Bible does not describe their situation. Instead, it describes fully converted believers, that is, people who are living in harmony with "all things whatsoever" Jesus "commanded". Jesus definitely abides in people, like Luther, who experience rebirth before they experience complete, thorough conversion (before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded).

But don't forget that if Brother Luther was alive he would be as responsible as we are to find the truth and to not be ignorant.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Martin Luther was so close on many points, but since he was truly led by the spirit of truth, now that more clearer present truth has been announced, then he would be as responsible as we to understand the Sabbath and state of the dead.

He was correct that death is a sleep but he also believed the soul was separate from the body.

Isn't God still winking his eye today at the ignorance of the 1st day over the 7th day; Sunday over the 7th day Sabbath?

The harlot church, just like Satan, has fallen by degrees. To the true church more light has been given. How many people accepted the Sabbath/righteousness by faith message between 1844 and 1888? Now we are millions strong, and worldwide the likelihood of being completely innocent of the knowledge has diminished.

Rome became the dragon when they tried to kill the baby Jesus. The same effect came upon the roman church by killing so called 'heretics' who kept the words of the bible over the traditions of men.

The "Fallen, Fallen" of Rev 18 shows when the end of probation is for the willingly ignorant. This is when the daughters of the Harlot join in their mother's rebellion of God by hate killing Sabbath keepers.

Every man is judged according to the light given to them in their lifetime. If the message has been given to them, and they offhandedly reject it without testing the Spirit of the message, then they lose early in the battle. If they do test the Spirit, not fully accepting but not openly rejected the light, or have never heard the message, the door of mercy is still open to them. The danger is greater for the unconvinced or willingly ignorant, than the truly ignorant, and un-convicted, see the difference.

Proportionately very few people who call themselves Christians will not have heard the message at the time of the loud cry, or not be fully cut off through disbelief.

Those who are totally ignorant, or on the fence, who yet desire for the knowledge of the Glory of the Lord, the 144,000 will speak to their hearts when the later rain comes. They will be brought through the valley of decision very quickly. This will occur when Satan appears as an angel of light and we stand against him, warning the world that these apparitions are not from God.

Yes, the door of mercy is still open for the ignorant. But it is going to be impossible to claim ignorance very very soon.

Do you not think people are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded when they do so to the absolute best of their knowledge? I mean, if you think about it for a moment, if you do not allow for circumstances or for ignorance to create an exception whereby the person is not guilty of sin, then Jesus Himself was necessarily a sinner on earth. After all, He ate foods that were unhealthful, as compared to the pure and unpolluted/non-toxic foods promoting eternal life of Heaven. Had He stayed in Heaven, He would have experienced no loss of health. Coming here, He took on a weakened form and ate of foods that were not the best for His eternal life. Yet, as we know, He committed no sin. His was a mission with a purpose. He even accepted flesh foods with His friends. Was food the most important part of His mission? or was it the people with whom He associated? Was it wrong of Him to fast 40 days? Should He never have stayed up all night in prayer? These things are injurious to health, are they not? Does spiritual health truly trump the requirements for physical health? Should we not demand both?

I guess, Mike, I see you as being overly particular in your views--to the point of losing sight of the more important aspects of the bigger whole. I would invite you to readjust your focus a little. Step back and ponder the big picture. Understand where God is coming from. He is particular, that is certain. But He is not nit-picking to find every conceivable flaw in us. He is not an accuser of the brethren. Nor does He hold us accountable for that which we do not know nor had opportunity to learn.

To spank an infant child for soiling his diaper would be insane. The child is not capable, at his stage of development, of doing anything else. The parent does not hold his infant accountable for all such "misdeeds," nor does he keep a record of them. The child is innocent.

As the child grows, develops, and learns, he becomes increasingly accountable. This is how I view God's perspective of us. We are not all equally accountable. Some have more knowledge or maturity in spiritual things than have others. We are "innocent" and "guiltless" insofar as we are living up to the light we presently have. All of it. But nothing beyond. We are not counted as sinners for that which we do in total ignorance. The Lord winks at our ignorance. To Him, as long as we follow all the light we have, I believe we are "perfect."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Christ as a baby probably also soiled his diapers, or whatever they were called back then.

Brother Daryl, that would be disposable swaddling blankets in their time...

At Mountain Man... where did you come up with this?

"Like Luther, there are many people today who are ignorantly breaking the Sabbath. And, like Luther, they are saved. However, the Bible does not describe their situation. Instead, it describes fully converted believers, that is, people who are living in harmony with "all things whatsoever" Jesus "commanded"."

If the bible doesn't tell of their situation then where did you come up with this?

My point is, no one is "saved" until being fully converted. Not even Seventh Day Adventists.

"We may believe that the name of Jesus is the only name under heaven whereby man may be saved, and yet we may not through faith make Him our personal Saviour. It is not enough to believe the theory of truth. It is not enough to make a profession of faith in Christ and have our names registered on the church roll. “He that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us.” “Hereby we do know that we know Him if we keep His commandments.” 1 John 3:24; 1 John 2:3. This is the genuine evidence of conversion. Whatever our profession, it amounts to nothing unless Christ is revealed in works of righteousness." {COL 312.3}

So where did you get this idea? It is not of our faith.

Those who do not know of the Sabbath and the commandments will have every opportunity to be converted until the end of probation, but to say that they are "saved" is not from the Holy Spirit. True salvation is not assured until full conversion.

If a man falls into a deep pit and a lifeline is thrown to him, would it be appropriate to say they are saved yet? Not until they are pulled out of the pit are they saved.

The key to the situation is the open and shut door.

There is a progression in present truth from the beginning and no man who rejects any part of the end time message will be saved.

In the days of Luther there was a universal ignorance because God had not fully revealed His plan to all so there a different level of accountability.

Since the time of Luther the door to the Holy Place is closed and the door to the most Holy is open, what did Mrs White say about those who refuse to follow Jesus into the Most Holy Place?

They worship at the throne of Satan. So be careful how you dole God's grace out.

"God’s work is to be carried forward with power. We need the baptism of the Holy Spirit... God has many thousands who have not bowed the knee to Baal. There are God-fearing men and women in the fallen churches. If this were not so, we would not be given the message to bear: “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen.” “Come out of her, My people.” Many of the honest in heart are gasping for a breath of life from heaven. They will recognize the gospel when it is brought to them in the beauty and simplicity with which it is presented in God’s Word."—Testimonies For The Church 9:109-111 (1909). {Ev 66.3}

Here are they who keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus, for the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy. Here are they who have wisdom.

The only true church in the last days are those who trust in the unadulterated Seventh day Adventist message, embracing the sacred writings given by God through our prophets from Moses to Ellen White.

If we do not have the Spirit of Prophecy, our church is a lie.

But my heart is thrilled by the same voice, and He leads me. He never contradicts what He has said before, making what was once known even clearer.

I believe that since 9/11 2001 people who do not have the commandments of God will have to come to Christ through the Sabbath to be finally saved.

The world is just at that point of straining the forbearance of God from the years of rejecting the powerful evidence given through the testimony. This testimony is spoken specifically of in all 3 of the prophecies through Mrs White about September 11.

We are in the time just before the golden censer is thrown down and it is finished, how much more time do you think we have?

There will be one more great attempt by God through men to save, one more big push. When Satan reveals himself as the man of sin, with the power of an angel of light sent from God, that is when the people of God who have listened to the testimony through our faith will proclaim with a loud voice "BABYLON HAS FALLEN THE SECOND TIME and become inhabited by demons, come out of her my people". These words are spoken in the first person narrative as if God Himself is speaking it through these 144,000 messengers. It will touch the truly devoted and they will come out, but they are NOT SAVED until they do!

During the later rain, the vast multitude which no man could number are led by the 144,000 which come from the Adventist denomination. The 144,000 have been prepared for the end by the unique interpretation given through our pioneers, The message that The peculiar people have been proclaiming for almost 170 years will prove itself to the world in the last days, after what happens in perfect fulfillment, just as prophesied by Mrs White's biblical prophetic interpretation. This will garner many from off the fence.

The Spirit of Prophecy PROVES who has the true Spirit of Christ. There are many things hidden in her writings that will powerfully be revealed in perfectly symmetrical amplification of the word of God, to those desiring to be pure of heart through Christs suffering, in the last days.

Here in this last quote is also joined two of the testimonies our Lord gave me in His name through visions and dreams.

The baptism of blood/fire that is spoken of here is the baptism of blood Jesus went through in the Garden of Gethsemane which began the three days and nights, "sign of Jonah", which is the sign to the wicked and adulterous generation at the end of history. The sign was the dove that overshadowed Him after His hour of darkness in the Garden. He had a dove overshadow Him at His baptism in the Jordan with water, then He had the dove overshadow Him again the Garden of Gethsemane. This was revealed to me. This is the second baptism that everyone needs.

Witnessing your sins placed upon the head of Christ, the coolest man who ever lived. The one who loved you the most. When you witness that, you are meeting Him at the altar of self sacrifice where He said "Not my will but your's Father" and was baptized in His own blood, for you, fulfilling the Red Heifer sacrifice in the exact spot it had been symbolically sacrificed for over a thousand years. So many prophecies come together in the Garden. It is where Jesus felt the wrath of God for us by being cut off from the Father Spiritually, dying the second death for us.

A completely new dimension of the Mission of Christ attested to by the Spirit of Prophecy and scripture and I get the big yawn from the church.

Why not, if my view inspired you and brought you to a better knowledge of the Words of God? So vice versa.

But one thing i'm pondering to, is what you believe that sinless perfect character is a prerequisite to enter heaven and eat the fruit of life. And from the answers and comments here after I discussed about this, I saw that this view has weakened, as you can't deny the truth I said, and thus can't sustain your view.

Therefore, hold fast to what you believe, and if it is not supported by the bible, throw it away before it brought you to eternal damnation.