I'm speaking as a moderator here. Please abstain from such comments.

True, most newborn believers experience rebirth before they understand "all things whatsoever" Jesus commanded. As such, they cannot possibly imitate Jesus' sinless example. I'm glad you believe total victory over sin is biblical. So many people do not. It's sad. They believe sinning and repenting, sinning and repenting over and over again is normal growth in grace.


The Bible does not describe newborn believers as people who are sinning and repenting, sinning and repenting over and over again as if it is normal growth in grace. Instead, the Bible describes not sinning as normal. "Perfecting holiness" is normal. True, believers often sin. But the Bible doesn't describe it as normal growth in grace.

You wrote, "I believe in total victory over sin - not, however, as an instantaneous result of the new birth." Is sinning, therefore, a normal result of rebirth? That is, do newborn believers sin while they are abiding in Jesus? If so, are you referring to sins of ignorance? Or, are you referring to known sins? Please cite Bible passages which describe the results of abiding in Jesus as including committing known sins (as opposed to citing examples of believers, like Peter, committing post-conversion sins). Or, do you think Peter was abiding in Jesus when he sinned?


Interesting. I didn't realize you think this way about what I believe. Good to know. Actually, though, I believe it is impossible for people who experience true, genuine, thorough rebirth and conversion (as opposed to people who experience rebirth first and then finish converting to living in harmony with "all things whatsoever" Jesus commanded later on) to commit a known sin. They do not and cannot commit a known sin while they are actively, aggressively abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature. To commit a known sin, therefore, they must neglect or refuse to abide in Jesus. In this state, all they can do is sin.


Newborn believers are born again "a perfect man". They have "tasted that the Lord is gracious". They have laid "aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings". They are "able also to bridle the whole body". They "stand perfect and complete in all the will of God". Of course, this is only true of them while they are actively, aggressively abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature. Otherwise, they resurrect the old man and then all they can do is sin.

True. The Bible promises victory over sin.


No, newborn believers don't sin while they are abiding in Jesus. The problem is, as I said, that abiding in Jesus is a learned experience, and something which grows with time - that is, each day you abide more and more in Jesus; the ideal state is when you never cease to abide in Jesus - then, of course, you no longer sin (this is what happened with Enoch and will happen with the 144,000). But, until that happens, Christians "shall fail often" in their efforts to copy the divine Pattern. Therefore, it cannot be said that they "do not sin." This translation is wrong. The correct translation should be that they "do not habitually sin."

You still don't comment on the quotes? Did YOU understand what I quoted? You obviously do not get it Mrs Moderator.

Can you abide in Christ and still sin is the issue.

If I sin I am not bold enough to say I am remaining in Christ by doing so, like you seem to be saying. Could Adam say He was remaining in Christ while he ate the fruit? He was first brought to his knees in repentance for the great disaster he caused (Like every sin causes) and after he repented he suffered the humiliation of his fallen condition for a thousand years, but He was saved through faith in the end of his life. When he fell was he still "in Christ"? You are mad if you think he was.

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO SIN AND REMAIN IN CHRIST AT THAT MOMENT.

The wages of sin is death. The moment after you sin you better be on your knees praying for mercy or you could die in that sin.

The instant you sin, you are on Satan's ground.

"How many will make an offering to the Lord of the whole being, to be used as a temple for His indwelling? Seek the Lord while He may be found. As you give yourself to Him to be cleansed from all sin, He will accept you as His child. He has revealed His love for you by sending His Son to this world to die for you, and He will help you to serve Him. {7MR 8.4}

Would you agree Moses was in Christ?

Then why was the angel going to destroy him for not having son circumcised?

It is because he had neglected God's command to do so, and this is sin.

Doesn't it seem harsh that God would destroy Moses for not circumcising his son? It was because he was acting as God's representative and not listening to God, because his wife didn't want her son circumcised.

And you obviously didn't understand what I said. My contention has to do with the new birth. The fact that someone has been born again doesn't mean he does not sin. 1 John 3:9 says:

"Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

This translation is inaccurate. "Everyone who has been born of God does not sin habitually" would be the correct translation.

The same is true about 1Jo 5:18:

"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not."

Rosangela, I don't see that word "habitually" in the Scripture4all software. Could you indicate which greek word the "habitually" correspond to in that verse?

Also could you state specifically what inaccuracy you see in 1Jon 5:18

Was Moses a habitual sinner? Yet the angel was going to destroy him for one sin, which was actually his wife's sin enforced on his love relationship with her, and he was going to die? If he was "in Christ" at that moment why would the angel destroy him? But he had already spoken with God at the burning bush so he was already abiding in Christ or he would have been destroyed standing in the presence of God. So he had to have left the security of God to be threatened with death like that.

Here is a good question. Was David abiding in Christ when he took his best servants wife and had him killed? NO WAY! He had tasted the grace of God and had walked in the body of Christ from the day he was anointed by Samuel. He was literally part of the body of Christ as the great, great, great,....grandfather of Jesus, yet he was convicted of the most horrendous crime. Was he abiding in Christ then?

Was Solomon abiding in Christ when he took wives from other nations and started worshiping their gods? He left that protection when he sinned, and if God would have permitted him to die, Solomon would not be saved.

When David chose to sin he also was stepping out from under the shadow of the Almighty, and if he had not repented the savior would have come another way, but there is no way you are going to tell me that at that point, when in the throws of sin and betrayal, that David was in Christ.

The point is, if we stay in Christ we do not sin. If we sin and repent we are forgiven, but if we do not repent we lose the grace of God.

The reason this point is so important is, what you are advocating is paramount to believing "once saved always saved". If you looked beyond what you are saying, you would see the flaws in your doctrines.

From the moment we are led by the Spirit to repent for what we did to GOD by our sins, which is true repentance, unlike those who are just trying to avoid the wrath of God, we are absolutely free of sin in the Fathers eyes. It is the faith of Christ that develops this trust so we continue to abide in Christ. Some people receive this faith right away, some it takes a lifetime. If we fall we have an advocate to get us back on the path.

Why did Jesus call the apostles "slow of faith"? Yet Jesus testified that the Samarian woman and the Roman Centurion were great of faith, why? Those two witnesses to God's grace saw how they deserved death, they recognized their lack of any merits to meet with God and were willing to do what ever it takes to receive grace.

Another point is, we as a people who claim the testimony of Jesus which is the Spirit of Prophecy are effected by sin as a group although responsibility is individual.

Like the sin of Achan that brought the suffering and death on the collective children of Israel, our church, the Seventh Day Adventist Church is being effected by decisions made by a few leaders and the effects are felt by the whole body. We need to be of those who sigh and cry for the abominations done in the sanctuary of God by our church, Laodicea, the judged people.

You have to be born again to enter into the body of Christ, they are one in the same in meaning.