Perhaps I've always misunderstood the text, but my understanding of Jesus' "despising the shame" is that Jesus did not even consider it shameful and took no thought for the shame of it "for the joy that was set before him."

If you are in the right, there is no need to be ashamed. If, however, you are in the wrong, shame is natural and even appropriate. When sinners are "shameless," it shows they no longer have tender hearts, rather hardened ones with little or no feeling left.

Those who are nearing perfection will certainly feel ashamed for their own imperfections and weaknesses. How could they not?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Jesus despised the shame of having to deal with those who claim to be devoted to, and motivated by God, yet they persecuted Him. He mourned over Jerusalem, over those who killed the prophets sent to them.

They insisted they were correct, yet He was the one who was the perfect manifestation of the truth. He proved beyond a shadow of a doubt how much the Father loves us yet they killed Him for it.

At the beginning of His ministry and the end He cleansed the temple, He is doing this again now.

Mathematically there can only be ONE TRUTH. When someone who has not seen the truth pursues teaching, they cause contempt on the church. And they believe with all their soul they are correct, or they are doing a dark work against the church with contempt hidden in their hearts. But both the ignorant and the spies do a lot of damage when they insist they know the truth.

I present what my Lord has shown me through example, I have seen with my own eyes a good place. Everything in scripture supports the divine imagination of the Father. He made the system to look at, the perfect example to emulate through all the prophecies, ceremonies, allegories, every single teaching in scripture is for our example to guide us to the side of Jesus; our example. He showed me how it all fits together as a map to follow in getting to where God wants us to be. We imagine through God's prompting what He established and this brings us closer to Him through His divine instruction.

The motivation that brings me here, is for the love of God. He loves all of you and wants only the truth to be in your hearts so you are not encumbered by false theories and darkness. His teachings are being perfected again within the church, the remnant receiving the truth.

When God gives me an insight, He leads me to moments to bring these arguments to the world to begin the debate that always ensues, until acceptance. He GIVES me thoughts, He leads my mind in righteousness when I pray for His guidance.

Total pagans have testified how miraculously the prayers God has prompted me to pray were fulfilled. I have seen miracles through the Spirit of God. The way God answers our prayers shows where we are in context to God's will. If your prayers are not being answered, then you are either on the wrong track, praying for things not in His will, or the end of probation has come. But since He has not forsaken us, and the end of probation has been extended by holding of the four winds, we need to get right with His will so our prayers have effect.

This is done by listening to His word and after learning about His promises, through prayer test His word, and when He answers, this leads to receiving a greater measure of the faith of Jesus.

Hebrews 13:13(ESV)

"Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach (shame) he endured."

"We should continually keep before us the sacrifice that was made by our Saviour, lest we should think that we are making wonderful sacrifices in our Christian life. He made an infinite sacrifice that we might have eternal life. The Father made a sacrifice the greatness of which no man can comprehend. The angels of heaven were amazed when the Father consented to give his only Son for a fallen race. When we can approach to an appreciation of the sacrifice made by the Father and the Son, we shall have a better appreciation of the value of souls. We should not study our own ease, since Christ has died for us, but we should be willing to deny self, to go without the camp, bearing his reproach. {RH May 28, 1889, par. 2}

David, Moses, etc, were not even newborn believers but adult believers, and still they did sin, and doing known sin. But they repent. Were they not fall in the category Rosangela described?



Were David, Moses, etc, an exception? While they were adult believers.

What does abide in Christ mean?

According to me, it is our faith that abides in Him, not our selves (how can?)

So, when we sin, does we loose faith in Christ? Did Adam, David and Moses loose their faith in God/Christ when they did sin?

I never loose faith in Christ, but I still enjoy sinning at this time. So, am I not abiding in Christ?

Sinning willfully is a choice, abiding by faith in Christ is a knowledge. David did sin willfully, but I believe he didn't loose his faith in God/Christ. Adam did sin willfully, but he never loose his faith in God, how can, while he experience direct communication in front of the presence of God/Christ.

Maturing in the fruits of the Spirit according to me includes a sinning and repenting progress in this life. It is not a perfect sinless every day life for every one, including David, Moses, etc.

"There are those who profess holiness, who declare that they are wholly the Lord’s, who claim a right to the promises of God, while refusing to render obedience to His commandments. These transgressors of the law claim everything that is promised to the children of God; but this is presumption on their part, for John tells us that true love for God will be revealed in obedience to all His commandments. It is not enough to believe the theory of truth, to make a profession of faith in Christ, to believe that Jesus is no impostor, and that the religion of the Bible is no cunningly devised fable. “He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments,” John wrote, “is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him.” “He that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him.” 1 John 2:4, 5; 3:24. {AA 562.3}
John did not teach that salvation was to be earned by obedience; but that obedience was the fruit of faith and love. “Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins,” he said, “and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him.” 1 John 3:5, 6. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in the heart, our feelings, our thoughts, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God. The sanctified heart is in harmony with the precepts of God’s law. {AA 563.1}

Mr Saptenno, We should never use men who have fallen as our example.

There is one man who NEVER sinned, He is our example.

Jesus never used His divinity to keep from sinning. He used only what is available for men to keep them from sinning, faith in the word of the Father. The faith that Jesus had in His Father kept Him from sin. Even when He took the sin of the world upon His mind He did not sin.

Yes, they fall into the category Rosangela described. However, I totally disagree with her. People do sin after they experience rebirth in God's appointed way. It's just that they cannot do it while they are abiding in Jesus. That's what it says in the Bible in words too plain to distort or misunderstand.


No, they are not exceptions. They did not sin while they were abiding in Jesus. People sin when they neglect to abide in Jesus.


Yes, people abide in Jesus by faith through knowledge of the truth. People sin when they neglect to abide in Jesus by faith. Again, the Bible is too clear to misunderstand the truth.

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Romans 7: (21st KJV)
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid! Nay, I would not have known sin, but through the law; for I would not have known lust, except that the law had said, “Thou shalt not covet.”
8 But sin, taking occasion through the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence; for without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died;
10 and the commandment, which was ordained to bring life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me and by it slew me.
12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid! But sin, that it might appear as sin, was working death in me by that which is good, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do, I know not. For what I would do, that do I not; but what I hate, that I do.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law, that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing; for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good, I find not.
19 For the good that I would do, I do not; but the evil which I would not do, that I do.
20 Now if I do that which I would not do, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Combining 1 Tim. 1:15 & Romans 7:7-25, I found out that even Paul did not live a sinless perfect life eversince his newborn day.

Verse 25: 21st KJV.
I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Thank God! Jesus Christ will rescue me.
So with my mind I serve the Law of God, although my selfish desires make me serve the law of sin. (CEV).

I like this version, giving a better view of what Paul meant.

Both thing happened in him, the war between sin that dwelt in him and the Spirit.

Although he went further saying:

Romans 8.
1. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

He admitted that the Spirit empowered him to overcome sin and be freed of it power, but that is when he follows the Spirit, meanwhile, he confessed earlier that he too sometimes did do what the flesh desires. He was freed from the power or desires of sin, which dwelt in his flesh, but this “sin” is still in the flesh, only at conversion of body at Jesus 2nd coming will he be totally get rid of it. So, sinless perfect life cannot be guaranteed, in other word, sinning is inevitable. He admitted this in verse 7:25, with his body his served the flesh desires, and in verses 8-24.

Looking to the fact that 1 Timothy 1:15 was written about the end of his ministry (62-62 AD – Wikipedia), meanwhile the letter to the Romans was written earlier (55AD-57AD – Wkipedia), I knew that Paul’s life is not of a sinless perfect life since the day of his newborn. Until the day he wrote his letter to Timothy, he admitted he IS still the chief of sinners (present tense).

My conclusion is that as according to Paul’s view, believers are saved by the grace of God as a gift, not as a reward for his efforts to live a sinless perfect life with the combine power of the Spirit, which when this is the target of believers, they will overruled Christ works on the cross and made it useless.

Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, lest any man should boast.

Galatians 2:21.
I do not frustrate the grace of God; for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

This eliminates whatsoever works, even the combine powers of the Spirit and our will to keep all God’s commandments in order not to sin or to remain righteous, moreover if the target is to reach a sinless perfect condition as a prerequisite to enter heaven and live eternally.