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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14636
06/21/05 12:31 PM
06/21/05 12:31 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
Who can forgive sins but God?
MM, I hope your thoughts are not along the lines of those who you quoted.
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14637
06/22/05 03:03 AM
06/22/05 03:03 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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John, it is not possible to exactly compare man and God. There are certain prerogatives that belong only to God. Man cannot equal God. We can imitate His character, but we cannot equal Him in all things. When we forgive an offence against us it does not mean that God forgives it too. God is not abliged to uphold our actions. I'm sure you agree with this.
God can judge motive, we cannot. God can save sinners, we cannot. God can punish and destroy unrepentant sinners, we cannot. God can kill Jesus on the cross, we cannot. God can lay down His life and take it up again, we cannot.
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14638
06/21/05 04:10 PM
06/21/05 04:10 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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John,
Personal offenses against me affect just me, while offenses against the constitution of a kingdom affect the whole kingdom; they threaten the good order and hapinness of the whole jurisdiction of the King.
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14639
06/21/05 06:21 PM
06/21/05 06:21 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
God can kill Jesus on the cross, we cannot.
Well this answers the question of the thread. Any more takers?
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14640
06/21/05 06:40 PM
06/21/05 06:40 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Did God kill Christ? Peter answered this question on Pentecost in this way: quote:
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Act 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
Act 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Christ spoke of it in this way:
quote:
Luk 22:53 When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.
Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God:...Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning;
Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
The Jewish leaders said it this way:
quote:
Joh 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
So here is the testimony of a witness, the testimony of the perpetrators, and the testimony of Christ (the victim) who died. It is shown that man, under the leadership and power of Satan, the working of darkness and sin, is the one that killed him.
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14641
06/21/05 06:57 PM
06/21/05 06:57 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
R: Personal offenses against me affect just me, while offenses against the constitution of a kingdom affect the whole kingdom; they threaten the good order and happiness of the whole jurisdiction of the King.
Rosangela; When you forgive, you forgive based upon your authority, for offenses or sins against you and those under your authority. There is a law in your being, which establishes these offenses, or else there could be no offense. How then can you forgive someone and at the same time vindicate the law of your being, showing that its transgression is something utterly grave?
You have a domain and realm of authority, of whatever size is immaterial. How do you forgive?
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14642
06/21/05 07:01 PM
06/21/05 07:01 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
MM: When we forgive an offence against us it does not mean that God forgives it too. God is not obliged to uphold our actions. I'm sure you agree with this.
When we forgive an offense “against us”, God forgives it too, always and always.
If we refuse to forgive someone, we are liable to be lost, but God may still save that person.
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14643
06/21/05 09:51 PM
06/21/05 09:51 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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John, there's an insight you left out when you listed verses to prove who killed Jesus:
John
10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Revelation
1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Also, if God is obliged to forgive the people I forgive how is that different than the catholic priesthood? Isn't God too good to err?
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14644
06/21/05 11:12 PM
06/21/05 11:12 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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MM, the scriptures you quoted do not contradict the scriptures I quoted in any way. They only confirm that he was willing to suffer us so. quote:
MM: Also, if God is obliged to forgive the people I forgive how is that different than the catholic priesthood? Isn't God too good to err?
The difference is that you can forgive only those who have sinned against you (and not others). That is what I meant when I said: When we forgive an offense “against us”, God forgives it too, always and always. There is no erring there.
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14645
06/22/05 01:13 PM
06/22/05 01:13 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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John,
It's useless for you to try to make God's forgiveness and our forgiveness similar, because they aren't. First of all, we don't need to (nor can we) impute our righteousness to the person forgiven, as God does.
Second, we aren't either sovereigns or judges or lawgivers, no matter how much you try to persuade me that we are.
Third, our forgiveness does not require that the person repents, while this is fundamental for God to forgive. If you must forgive the raper of your daughter (and you must, whether he repents or not), does this mean that God must forgive and save him, even if he does not repent?
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