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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14666
06/24/05 02:26 PM
06/24/05 02:26 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Our judgment is intimately connected with our righteousness. Our ability to forgive, and the nature of our forgiveness, is a fruit of our righteousness. 1) There is a righteousness which is “under the law” which works wrath. This righteousness is not of God; it is of sin. Sin imposes it on God. 2) There is righteousness “apart from the law” in the above sense, or “the essence of the law” in Phil’s sense, which gives life. The fruit of this righteousness is love, joy, peace, longsuffering … (the fruits of the spirit). The work of salvation saves us from the first to the second. quote:
R: Although the person may be forgiven, the act is unforgivable.
Mic 7:19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
God has no interest in justifying the deed. He also has no interest in avenging the deed. The deed is wrong, no questions. However it does not have to be avenged; paid for. It can be and is forgiven and forgotten. What it takes is mercy and grace.
You see the Lord can reverse what was done. He can raise the dead, and he will. He can put back the ear that Peter cut off, and he did. He can return and increase the wealth that was robbed of Job, and he did. Those are not, and never have been a problem to him. But to work in us his grace and change our righteousness from wrath to grace is what takes the “birth pains” of the cross.
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14667
06/24/05 02:33 PM
06/24/05 02:33 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
R: Some monstrosities committed by human beings provoke in us an utter revulsion.
John: Some monstrosities committed by human beings provoke in us an utter pity.
R: You are mixing things. You can pity the sinner, not the sin.
That is the point; I was not mixing it up, only pointing out that; what is “provoked” is dependent on the righteousness in your heart. Depending on that is what you will see.
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14668
06/24/05 02:42 PM
06/24/05 02:42 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Rosangela, You have still avoided the questions:
How do you forgive? Why are you unwilling to answer?
How do you love your enemies? How do you do good to them that despitefully use you? It is pretty clear they are not repentant while they are your enemies.
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14669
06/25/05 03:04 AM
06/25/05 03:04 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
John: Do not mix what it takes to be saved with what it takes to forgive. The two are not one and the same.
R: The two are the same and I can provide dozens of passages to this effect. But if you know of any passage which proves your point, please share it with us.
Mat 5:43-46 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
To forgive your enemy or to love your enemy does not require your enemy to cease from being your enemy before you forgive or love. But in loving, forgiving him/her while they are enemy, you will heap ‘coals of fire’, and they might turn and be saved.
So your forgiveness and love is not dependent on the transgressors acceptance of salvation. That which is the same is that when they do get saved they will have the same spirit of love and forgiveness you offered them.
“He, who has been forgiven much, loveth much.”
God does not wait till he “loveth” before he remits payment of his sins via wrath on “his son”. Nor did he execrate it on his son in some ‘foreknowledge’ way. That is abomination in the sight of God.
He forgives. It is the glory of God to forgive iniquity, transgression, and sin.
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14670
06/25/05 03:28 AM
06/25/05 03:28 AM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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Amen, John B. and well said, especially this part:
*Our judgment is intimately connected with our righteousness.* Our ability to forgive, and the nature of our forgiveness, is a fruit of our righteousness.
1) There is a righteousness which is “under the law” which works wrath. This righteousness is not of God; it is of sin. Sin imposes it on God.
2) There is righteousness “apart from the law” in the above sense, or “the essence of the law” in Phil’s sense, which gives life. The fruit of this righteousness is love, joy, peace, longsuffering … (the fruits of the spirit).
The work of salvation saves us from the first to the second.
*May I rephrase this statement?: "Our deductions intimately determine our right-doing or wrong-doing."
I too would love to hear how you forgive, Roseangela.
Many "forgive" because they fell powerless, and secretly are gleeful that God will "pay their enemies back" in this life or at the Judgment seat. This is hardly Christ's way, but merely a hiding behind a "bully big brother", for want of a better comparison.
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14671
06/24/05 05:28 PM
06/24/05 05:28 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Amen, Rosangela. Only Jesus can truly forgive in the salvational sense. We can, and must, forgive one another, but in no way is our forgiveness the same as God's.
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14672
06/24/05 07:59 PM
06/24/05 07:59 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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What is the difference? Is there another spirit?
I am not contending against Christ being the Saviour; I think you know that. I am just asking what the differnece is in forgiveness.
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14673
06/24/05 10:27 PM
06/24/05 10:27 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Ele não pode deixar de manifestar Sua ira contra o pecado = He cannot avoid manifesting His wrath against sin; that's how I would say it anyway. I agree with the ideas you expressed, Rosangela, except that the words mean different things I think to me than they do for you. For example, I agree completely that God will punish sin, and must do so for rightouesness sake, because of the holiness of His character, and so on. But what that means to me is not that He arbitrarily acts against His because of His displeasure of it, but rather He allows those who have chosen it to suffer the consequences of their choice. That *is* their punishment, and this is the manifestation of God's wrath against sin. I think the passage in DA 764 makes this crystal clear. A simple sentence which helps immensely in understanding this is the following: quote:
The light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked. (DA 108)
Note that it is the same thing which gives life to the righteous which slays the wicked. The same thing. This point is very important. It shows it is not an arbitrary act of power on God's part that destroys the wicked -- because the same thing which He does which results in the death of the wicked gives life to the righteous.
Phil's illustration is an excellent example of the principle. The sun killed the mushrooms but brought life to the flowers.
God knows that the manifestation of His goodness will kill the wicked, but what would the alternative be? Keep them in prisons millions of miles away from Him? (this sounds like hell)
As I perceive things, God will patiently and kindly explain to the wicked where in their lives they went wrong, where they rejected His voice which they know so well, and the many times He offered to heal them. But this very process, which God would wish could even then heal them, cannot and will not. They have through a lifetime of persistent rebellion so hardened their characters against God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. His love causes them pain. In mercy God allows them to die.
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14674
06/24/05 11:48 PM
06/24/05 11:48 PM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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Very simply put, Tom.
Let's consider why God manifests His full ("we shall see Him as He is...) glory right after the Explanation to the Wicked (Exposure or Trial or Judgment, same thing to me).
Why would He pour out this overwhelming flood of His power at that point in time? Why had the saints not seen this during the Millenium? If this is actually more for the saints then the doomed, what is God doing next for them?
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14675
06/26/05 05:08 PM
06/26/05 05:08 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
He also has no interest in avenging the deed. The deed is wrong, no questions. However it does not have to be avenged; paid for. It can be and is forgiven and forgotten. What it takes is mercy and grace.
The Lord says in several passages, “Vengeance is Mine”. Of course God will not avenge Himself of people. The logical conclusion is that He will avenge Himself of sin.
“Satan had through his seductive power led men to vain philosophy, to question and finally disbelieve the divine revelation and the existence of God. He looked abroad upon a world of moral wretchedness and a race exposed to the wrath of a sin-avenging God with fiendish triumph that he had been so successful in darkening the pathway of so many, and had led them to transgress the law of God. He clothed sin with pleasing attractions to secure the ruin of many.” {Con 35.2}
“There are limits even to the forbearance of God, and many are exceeding these boundaries. They have overrun the limits of grace, and therefore God must interfere and vindicate His own honor. . . .When the Lord comes forth as an avenger, He will also come as a protector of all those who have preserved the faith in its purity and kept themselves unspotted from the world.” {AG 51}
John, I’m not avoiding your question. I just don’t know exactly what you and Ikan expect me to answer. I think I have already made clear that our forgiveness must be unconditional, for if we don’t forgive we certainly will hate; but God’s forgiveness is conditioned upon repentance, for a forgiveness without repentance would avail nothing for the person who receives it.
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