True. But, that does not mean that they can always be interchanged.

Something else it seems. Pontifex Maximus ?
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Ted Wilson holds an honorable posiiton as President. In no way does he fill the role of a pastor. The last time he and I talked was 27 years ago. My pastor is available 24/7. A pastor is one who has a continuing, on-going relationsip with parish members. President Wilson does not. To call him a pastor, deminishes the role of a pastor who has a congregation and is available 24/7.

He has a very honorable role, but not that of the pastor.

Perhaps something like the Levites of old?

Diakonos was often translated as minister, but not always. Minister might mean diakonos, but not always. Mathematical precision is impossible with language.

Perhaps. But definitely for another thread.

I was using him as an example of a pastor everyone knows. But I hear you. If I refer to a local pastor who is actually shepherding his local sheep, nobody would recognize him. It seems that pastoring is very different from evangelism and adminstration.

This might be a bit off topic, but it is well within the realm of the ordination discussion. If the GC president is not doing a pastor's work, then why do we have pastoral ordination as a requirement for the job? It is like saying, "If you want to get a job as an accountant, you need to get SCUBA certified." It seems that we have lost sight of the basic meaning of ordination: being called and authorized to perform a particular task. Why do we require a person who wants an administrative position (conference president, etc.) to be ordained to perform some other task (pastoring)?

Now we end up with local pastors who have no divine calling to be pastors, but have to endure it, and force their congregations to endure it, as they work their way up the denominational ladder. Or, you find gifted pastors who are excellent at their jobs, who are "promoted" into some other position for which they have no skill. Or just keeping it on the local level, pastors who are good shepherds are forced to be administrators as well, and pastors who are great administrators are forced to shepherd a flock.

Don't even get me started on pastors who are terrible preachers but feel it is their duty to preach every week, or awesome preachers who spend much of their time doing administration because they are "only" an associate pastor.

I resonate with your ideas here, but the ultimate goal of this thread is to determine from the Bible what "ordination" entails. So, with that in mind, can we establish biblical reasons for ordaining to a particular task? I think we may be able to. But before I post on that, let me get back to something that I feel is very important with respect to ordination that I was bringing up earlier.

How important is "ordination" to God? Can just "anyone" of man's choosing be ordained? or is it strictly a divine appointment, to be filled only on God's terms? And what is the manner of God's revelation of His terms, if the latter is true?

Let's start with that first question. The answer is found with respect to God's law, and is represented among the sanctuary symbols. I may not be eloquent in expressing this here, so please bear with me and try to look beyond my words to the truths themselves as elucidated by God's Word.

There is only one part of the Bible which God Himself chose to write. We all know it as the Ten Commandments. Not only did God choose to write it with His own finger, but He also wrote it upon stone, to represent its enduring nature. God's Law is a representation of His character of love, and is unchangeable forever.

There was another law to be found in the sanctuary, a law recorded by Moses containing the ceremonies and rituals which the people were to follow for a time. This law was spoken of as a law of "ordinances." It was placed on the outside of the ark of the covenant, in a pocket on the side of it, facing against the people. (For this reason Paul speaks of it as having been "against" us.) This law of ceremonies was abolished at The Cross.

While the ceremonial law was on the outside of the ark, presenting a temporal law, the sacred Ten Commandments were placed inside the ark, presenting an eternal law. But two other notable items were placed beside the Ten Commandment Law inside the ark. The first of these was actually prepared before the tables of stone were made--the pot of manna. It represented the enduring providence of God toward His people.

The second item to be placed inside the ark along with the Ten Commandments was Aaron's budded rod. The story is found in Numbers 17. God Himself chose a signal manner of demonstration of His choice of Aaron's tribe to be His spiritual leaders for the people. All the would-be leaders had brought their rods before God, but only Aaron's would bud, blossom, and grow almonds. God then directed that this would become as eternal as His law and as His providence. Aaron's rod was not placed on the outside of the ark, to be abolished at the cross. It was, by God's command, placed inside the ark, to be enduring.

Here's the story in Numbers 17:


Just as God has not chosen to change any whit of the Ten Commandments, just as God has not gone back on His providence for His people, but sustains them still, so also God still holds strict adherence for His selection of spiritual leadership of the people. His ordination requirements were made clear back then, and they were again made clear in the New Testament. Those who murmured, perished. There are lessons here for us.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

While I agree that God still chooses His leaders, I don't think the tie to Aaron's rod holds. Hebrews is pretty clear that the Aaronic priesthood has been replaced by Christ, a priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Perhaps the more enduring lesson of Aaron's rod is that God can still quicken the dead and cause him to bear fruit in spite of the helplessness of the raw material.

Please supply the scriptures to back up your position. For example, what makes you think that Christ made a "change" to the representation of Aaron's rod?

The manna has not changed. The Ten Commandments have not changed. What makes Aaron's rod different from these, when they were placed in the same category in the ark?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.