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Re: Did God kill Christ? #14676
06/26/05 11:18 PM
06/26/05 11:18 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
Satan had through his seductive power led men to disbelieve the divine revelation and existence of a God of love, grace, mercy, longsuffering, forgiving…Saviour. He looked with fiendish triumph that he had been so successful in darkening the pathway of so many, which by their moral wretchedness would see God as a wrathful sin-avenging God. He clothed sin with pleasing attractions while he represented the law of God with hostile intent and thus led them to transgress the law of God, securing the ruin of many.

Re: Did God kill Christ? #14677
06/26/05 11:26 PM
06/26/05 11:26 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
quote:
R: I think I have already made clear that our forgiveness must be unconditional, for if we don’t forgive we certainly will hate; but God’s forgiveness is conditioned upon repentance, for a forgiveness without repentance would avail nothing for the person who receives it.
By what spirit, means and ways will you forgive unconditionally, while God can only forgive conditionally?

The scriptures are clear that God expects us to forgive the same as he. He gives us his spirit for that very purpose.

If a person receives it, then they have a changed heart.

Re: Did God kill Christ? #14678
06/27/05 12:34 AM
06/27/05 12:34 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
If God's forgiveness were conditional, we'd all be dead. It's because God forgave that He gave His Son. We can only be healed if we believe His forgiveness and experience it as our own, but His behavior is not conditioned by ours -- it's the other way around. It's only when we realize that God loves us unconditionally that we can be healed.

I spoke of unilateral and bilateral forgiveness earlier. That might help to clarify. God unilaterally forgives us first, so that we can be bilaterally forgiven; that is, experience His forgiveness as a reality in our lives.

Here's an analogy. The slaves were legally freed by the emancipation proclamation, but until they heard the good news and believed it, they could not experience that freedom as their own.

quote:
His heart of divine love and sympathy is drawn out most of all for the one who is the most hopelessly entangled in the snares of the enemy. With His own blood He has signed the emancipation papers of the race. (MH 89, 90)

Re: Did God kill Christ? #14679
06/27/05 11:55 PM
06/27/05 11:55 PM
Ikan  Offline
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
Let's make sure we understand that God's basic, worldwide blessings on saint and sinners alike (for temporal life, rain, the reliability of the laws of physics, the hold back of the "winds of strife", etc.) are what are tokens of God's unconditional love.
His higher, deeper blessings, rescuing individuals from eternal death, the wages of the sins, requires certain conditions.

The first being "Come unto Me..." If this condition is refused, faked, parried, held "in the outer court", formalized, or culturally conditioned, than the what killed Christ on the Cross, sin itself, will kill you.

Re: Did God kill Christ? #14680
06/28/05 01:20 AM
06/28/05 01:20 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
Yes Phil, and in order to come to him, we need to see him as he is; or we will not come to him.

If I am supposed to come to a God who is unable to forgive me, unless I am clean of sin; who is unable to take me as I am, all messed up and not knowing how to accomplish anything but sin, and save me from that state; working in me his grace.

If I as a sinner am supposed to have more grace than him toward my fellow; if I am supposed to believe that the only reason why he can forgive is because he killed somebody else in my stead; I have very little confidence in any mercy at his hand. Sounds more like Sadam.

But if I understand that he is abundant in goodness and mercy, full of goodwill and grace, gracious and longsuffering, forgiving and succoring; a savior to all who come to him trusting; then I will have confidence in coming to him believing that he is, and is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

If I understand that, though I, having been wicked enough to kill his son whom he sent to save me; that in spite of that he and his son have forgiven me and are calling me to cease from enmity and become his son/daughter; that they want to give me life for my death; grace for my wrath; love for my hate…then I have someone to come to, to save me.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Re: Did God kill Christ? #14681
06/28/05 09:15 AM
06/28/05 09:15 AM
C
Charity  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020

4500+ Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
I haven't been following this thread recently, but the last few posts were inspiring to me. Thank you John and Tom.

Re: Did God kill Christ? #14682
06/28/05 01:01 PM
06/28/05 01:01 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
"In all His dealings with His creatures God has maintained the principles of righteousness by revealing sin in its true character--by demonstrating that its sure result is misery and death. The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. Such pardon would show the abandonment of the principles of righteousness, which are the very foundation of the government of God. It would fill the unfallen universe with consternation. God has faithfully pointed out the results of sin, and if these warnings were not true, how could we be sure that His promises would be fulfilled? That so-called benevolence which would set aside justice, is not benevolence, but weakness." {AG 73.2}

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

God has made provision for the forgiveness of all and every sin. When the sinner, by the grace of God, feels the need of this forgiveness, and asks for it, it is freely granted. God's goodness leads to repentance, and repentance, to forgiveness.

Re: Did God kill Christ? #14683
06/28/05 01:23 PM
06/28/05 01:23 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
quote:
He looked with fiendish triumph that he had been so successful in darkening the pathway of so many, which by their moral wretchedness would see God as a wrathful sin-avenging God.
John,

This is not what the text says. Besides, there are other passages which use this expression, like the following:

"Fifteen hundred years after this night [of the Passover], Jesus, the antitype of the paschal lamb, died upon the cross for the sins of the world. The lamb without blemish represented the spotless Lamb of God, without the taint of sin. As the houses of Israel were to be sprinkled with blood in order for the avenging angel to pass over them, so it will be necessary for us to repent of our sins and avail ourselves of the virtue of the blood of Christ to guard us from the avenging angel of God in the day of slaughter. Through Christ alone is our pardon to be obtained. His blood will protect us from a sin-avenging God." {YI, May 1, 1873 par. 11}

Re: Did God kill Christ? #14684
06/28/05 03:45 PM
06/28/05 03:45 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
His blood will protect us from a sin-avenging God.
What does this mean? I understand it to mean that sin will inevitably result in death if we do not allow God to heal us. We are healed when we perceive His goodness as it is revealed in Christ. We see that most clearly by Christ's life and death (represented by His blood). Apart from Christ, we could never have been healed, and would have inevitably suffered the results of sin, which is death. We would have been slayed by the light of the glory of God.

Another way of looking at this is that it's a good thing Jesus came along to shed His blood so that the sin-avenging God won't destroy us. This way of looking at things pits Christ against God. But God so loved the world, He gave His Son. The Godhead works in unison for our redemption. We need to be careful not to construct the work of redemption in such a way that we separate God the Father from God the Son. If God the Father had come to earth instead of the Son, we would never have known the difference. God -- Father, Son and Holy Spirit -- is longing to save us from sin.

Re: Did God kill Christ? #14685
06/29/05 01:04 AM
06/29/05 01:04 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
Satan had through his seductive power led men to disbelieve the divine revelation and existence of a God of love, grace, mercy, longsuffering, forgiving…Saviour. He looked with fiendish triumph that he had been so successful in darkening the pathway of so many, which by their moral wretchedness would see God as a wrathful sin-avenging God. He clothed sin with pleasing attractions while he represented the law of God with hostile intent and thus led them to transgress the law of God, securing the ruin of many.

This is true.

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