Excellent point Brother Mt Man.

"God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that “the wages of sin is death,” that every violation of God’s law must receive its just retribution. Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father’s face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. All this sacrifice was made that sinners might be redeemed. In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression.... {DD 16.4}

Jesus was the lamb slain (or written) from the foundation of the world, Revelation 13:8. See also 1 Peter 1:19-20 and Patriarchs and Prophets, page 63, par 3.

I thought you presenting this quote was fabulous. That is why I quoted it above, and shared it with one of my study partners. Also why I included this quote which I will repeat:
The death of Christ is not for "mere forgiveness" and is not a "mere skillful way to have our sins pardoned". It is a divine remedy for the cure of transgression. The means that the righteousness of Christ is both upon us and in our characters. It is the restoration, the reconstruction of our ruined nature. Mere forgiveness does not do this. We need to be born again. A total transformation.

Exactly, the refined nature of men who have been redeemed actually acts as a testimony to God's grace for eternity.

After men have made it past the end of probation, at the resurrection of the righteous, the people who are transformed become kings and priests, because we have gone through the experience. We get to testify to the unfallen worlds who have passed their probation at the same time, to the grace of God.

Jesus told His true disciples that we get to sit with Him on His throne by overcoming. This is the strongest part of the true Adventist message, and makes our testimony stand out distinctively.

It has to be presented in the perfect light of scripture, inspired by the Holy Spirit, confirmed by the Spirit of Prophecy, not by the round about way presented by made up doctrines.

Not to boast, but most likely much better that you do.

Ah - another one of my teachers. Did you know either of these personally? Yes, there are many that said that Graham taught moral influence theory. There are many that did not understand, and still don't. Most are very legalistic in their own theory of the atonement.

Did you understand the Biblical definition of grace I gave above? Did you understand the implication of the quote I gave of EGW and the one mountainman gave? Just merely being forgiven will not make us acceptable to be in God's presence. God is forgiveness personified. Only by a total restoration will we be able to be in the presence of God. See the quote mountainman posted.

do you know the definition of the word, "doctor"? How about a priest? Is Jesus a priest? What makes Him able to be our able High Priest? Hebrews 2:17-18 Why in all things it behooved him to be made like to his brothers, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted.

Who kills the lamb?

In the end, what kills the sinner?

Understand the most who have a legal model of the atonement, have God being the executioner in the end. After all, God is not only loving, He is also just, they will say. But they ignore the Bible which says, the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) and sin, when it is full grown, brings forth death (James 1:15). And on the cross, did God kill Jesus? Jesus died the second death, but what killed Him? Execution by God?

EGW often reference to Jesus as the "Great Physician". Why?

How about the story of the man with the palsy that was let down through the roof? Jesus said: Luke 5:23-24 Whether is easier, to say, Your sins be forgiven you; or to say, Rise up and walk? 24 But that you may know that the Son of man has power on earth to forgive sins, (he said to the sick of the palsy,) I say to you, Arise, and take up your couch, and go into your house.Jesus could say this because healing and forgiveness of sin, was the same thing. All sickness and death is caused by sin. Forgiving sin is healing of sin.

I do note james, that you did not answer my question in regard to the definition of forgiveness. Do you have one?

Yes, and HOW will God punish? The destruction of Jerusalem is an example:

Was that a Yes or a No?

If Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world, does that mean He did not have to die on the cross since He was already slain?

"Mere forgiveness of sin is not the sole result of the death of Jesus."

No, but it is the first purpose and requirment for our salvation. Without forgiveness there is no healing or restoration from sin.

"He made the infinite sacrifice not only that sin might be removed, but that human nature might be restored, rebeautified, reconstructed from its ruins, and made fit for the presence of God."

It is because Christ took our sins and died the penalty the law demands for sins that we can be declared righteous.

Now, BECAUSE Christ has defeated Satan, and has taken our sins from us (yes the legal forensic part is absolutely necessary) and has reclaimed us, and forgiven those who respond and come to Him confessing their sin, the work of transformation and healing from sin can take place.

We are to RECKON, or account ourselves as being without sin! Romans 6 -- having died to sin with Christ, and rising to new life (forgiven as if we had not sinnned) with Christ.

So account yourselves as being without sin. (forgiven)

A person who realizes He has been cleansed is now ready to be healed and transformed by walking with Christ and His Holy Spirit.

In the end -- yes, there will be a definite end.

All who have accepted Christ's cleansing blood will see the final destruction of their sins upon the head of satan the originator of sin.
All who rejected Christ's sacrifice and cleansing will bear their own sins.

God is a consuming fire where ever sin is to be found.
In His presence the redeemed can stand in the righteousness of Christ and rejoice in His presence.
Those who depended upon self righteousness and clung to their sins will be consumed along with satan and his angels. There will be a literal fire that cleanses the earth of all traces of sin.

asygo - did you read my reply and references? I don't think so.

According to the healing model, was Enoch healed? If he was, did Jesus have to die for him? If so, why?


Yes, Jesus had to die for Him!
Enoch understood the plan of salvation.
The promise was there. He believed.
As Enoch looked at his young son Methuselah, the meaning of the sacrifice God would make, took hold of him as never before.
He understood why his sins were forgiven, and the realization made him love God more and more, and he "walked with God".

Christ on the cross bore the sins of pre as well as post cross believers.