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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective
[Re: asygo]
#146699
11/08/12 10:07 AM
11/08/12 10:07 AM
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But it should reveal to us that the common understanding of a deacon as merely one who turns on the lights and collects offering is not biblical. We have strayed from God's plan.
Like for deacons, we have altered God's plan.
So it looks like we have fallen into two extremes: we add requirements to qualify to become one type of ordained minister (pastor), while we diminish the role of another type of ordained minister (deacon).
Many think, "How hard can it be to turn on lights and collect offering?"
This seems to be the problem. In a Greek dictionary I have seen the original biblical definition of diakonos as an "associate apostle". How far have we gone from that original definition? It would hurt some of the fibers in your brain if you heard someone calling Phoebe an associate apostle, wouldn't it? Wouldn't it hurt our personal cultural definitions?
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective
[Re: Johann]
#146728
11/08/12 10:19 PM
11/08/12 10:19 PM
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What would happen in our churches if we suddenly start calling our pastors deacons? Is that Biblical? I'm not concerned about what titles we give each other now. I'm concerned about what God taught through the Bible. In short: When we look at our modern pastor, let's say Ted Wilson, is he the biblical diakonos or presbyteros or episkopos? Or is it something else?
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective
[Re: asygo]
#146736
11/09/12 10:58 AM
11/09/12 10:58 AM
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In short: When we look at our modern pastor, let's say Ted Wilson, is he the biblical diakonos or presbyteros or episkopos? Or is it something else? I thought we had come to the conclusion that these terms are overlapping quite a bit in Scripture. What difference does it make then which term applies to Ted Wilson?
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective
[Re: Johann]
#146746
11/09/12 03:09 PM
11/09/12 03:09 PM
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No. We agreed that "diakonos" is often translated "minister" in the Bible, but we did not agree that it was interchangeable with presbyteros or episkopos. Many today think they are, but Paul did not. If he did, after laying out the qualifications for elders in 1 Tim 3, he could have said, "Ditto for the deacons." But he made a distinction between the two.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective
[Re: Johann]
#146906
11/13/12 04:53 AM
11/13/12 04:53 AM
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I thought we had come to the conclusion that these terms are overlapping quite a bit in Scripture. What difference does it make then which term applies to Ted Wilson? This brings up a good point. What difference does it make? When things in the Bible appear to be very similar, does it matter what difference we make of them? Let's see... The Lord's goat versus the scapegoat Sacred fire versus common fire Levite versus Israelite Man versus woman? What difference does it make? Korah thought there should be no difference in eligibility between himself and Aaron, seeing as they were first-cousins. But did God see as man sees? "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the ends thereof are the ways of death." Korah proved this to be true. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#146907
11/13/12 04:57 AM
11/13/12 04:57 AM
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Following along the lines of the same thought as my previous post, how important is "ordination" to God? When God has chosen a group of individuals to be the spiritual leaders of His people, does it matter if their "cousins" join the team? What importance did God place upon His choice of spiritual leadership?
The answer is found among the sanctuary symbols. Can you spot it?
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective
[Re: Johann]
#147065
11/17/12 03:05 PM
11/17/12 03:05 PM
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In other words, the Greek word isn't limited to just one meaning, therefore, those verses need to be looked at within each of their own contexts. This is true for most words in any language. Check any English dictionary and you will find that most words have several meanings.
Gregory
May God's will be done.
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective
[Re: Mountain Man]
#147066
11/17/12 03:08 PM
11/17/12 03:08 PM
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Deacons do things like make sure the doors are open in the morning for everyone to enter the church, turn on the lights and the sound system, line up the chairs, if necessary, on the platform, and help to collect the offering. A deaconess would do similar church duties of a more feminine nature, perhaps. Not in the days of the apostles.
Gregory
May God's will be done.
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective
[Re: Johann]
#147068
11/17/12 03:11 PM
11/17/12 03:11 PM
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Can a deacon ordain an elder?
In the 1st Cent., probably yes. Elders were ordained by the people of the local congregation. Deacons probably participated in that as local leadersthip.
Gregory
May God's will be done.
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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective
[Re: Johann]
#147070
11/17/12 03:15 PM
11/17/12 03:15 PM
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But it should reveal to us that the common understanding of a deacon as merely one who turns on the lights and collects offering is not biblical. We have strayed from God's plan. Yes. and yes, we follow a plan for Deacons that is not entirely Biblical. NOTE: In the Roman Catholic Chruch and certai other "high church" denominations, Deacons are clergy, just not priests. These denominations havae several levels of clergy and Deacons are one. As such, in the Roman Catholic Chruch they may wear a clerical collar.
Last edited by Gregory; 11/17/12 03:17 PM.
Gregory
May God's will be done.
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