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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147050
11/17/12 12:42 AM
11/17/12 12:42 AM
asygo  Offline
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California, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
The "healing-only" logic:
Man's moral nature needs to be healed.
A legal solution does not heal man's moral nature.
Therefore, man does not need a legal solution.

Using the same logic:
Man's moral nature needs to be healed.
Water does not heal man's moral nature.
Therefore, man does not need water.

Both syllogisms are equally sound.
You have added a limitation to what I've said, "moral nature". Did I say "moral nature"? Nope. You are injecting a qualifier there that I did not put in there. Why? Is sin just a moral problem? Or is sin much greater? I don't want to put words into your mouth, but is it your opinion that since all nature is affected by sin, then dogs get cancer because of their "moral nature"?

Christ died for our sins according to the Scripture. No mention of His dying for canine cancer. Cancer, canine or otherwise, is not a sin.

Christ's death, the atonement, the sin problem, and the related topics that we have been discussing are not physical issues. We might have physical problems, but God's plan of salvation was not implemented in order to fix my bad back. The problem is moral. Our physical ailments are a Red Herring at best. Our depravity is the crux of the matter.

But if it will make the logic easier to digest, I'll comply with your wishes. Just know that even if all the terms are replaced with variables, the logic is just as fallacious. Your defense only clouds the issue for those who cannot see the pure logic.

The "healing-only" logic:
Man's nature needs to be healed.
A legal solution does not heal man's nature.
Therefore, man does not need a legal solution.

Using the same logic:
Man's nature needs to be healed.
Water does not heal man's nature.
Therefore, man does not need water.

Pure logic:
Man needs X.
Y is not X.
Therefore, man does not need Y.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147051
11/17/12 12:53 AM
11/17/12 12:53 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
No one has commented on my connection of Isaiah 53 and Titus 3 for a Biblical definition of Grace. This Biblical definition states, that by the knowledge that Christ gained in His experience, He is able to justify (set right) many.

If this was true, then He could not have justified anyone in the Old Testament, including Enoch, Moses, and Elijah. That would be problematic.
Only if you think God is bound by time.

We are bound by time, which makes the plan of redemption temporally constrained. To invoke temporal independence would result in an argument like: Jesus needed to die on the cross to learn X so that He could justify sinners, which He already knew before the cross and used to justify Enoch.

You would also run into issues of sovereignty vs. free will. How could those guilty of His crucifixion avoid committing the sin if it had happened already in Enoch's time?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: asygo] #147054
11/17/12 02:22 AM
11/17/12 02:22 AM
APL  Offline
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Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Did Enoch need to cross for salvation?
Quote:
It was because there was no other way in which man could be saved, because without this sacrifice it was impossible for the human race to escape from the defiling power of sin, and be restored to communion with holy beings,--impossible for them again to become partakers of spiritual life,--it was because of this that Christ took upon Himself the guilt of the disobedient and suffered in the sinner's stead. The love and suffering and death of the Son of God all testify to the terrible enormity of sin and declare that there is no escape from its power, no hope of the higher life, but through the submission of the soul to Christ. {SC 31.2}
Enoch is saved the same way we are, and needed the same sacrifice we needed.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147055
11/17/12 02:49 AM
11/17/12 02:49 AM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,640
California, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
Did Enoch need to cross for salvation?
Quote:
It was because there was no other way in which man could be saved, because without this sacrifice it was impossible for the human race to escape from the defiling power of sin, and be restored to communion with holy beings,--impossible for them again to become partakers of spiritual life,--it was because of this that Christ took upon Himself the guilt of the disobedient and suffered in the sinner's stead. The love and suffering and death of the Son of God all testify to the terrible enormity of sin and declare that there is no escape from its power, no hope of the higher life, but through the submission of the soul to Christ. {SC 31.2}
Enoch is saved the same way we are, and needed the same sacrifice we needed.

Good. We agree on that.

Was Enoch healed, nearly 4,000 years before Jesus died on the cross?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147056
11/17/12 03:14 AM
11/17/12 03:14 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: APL
Being descriptive, the consequences for breaking these laws are intrinsic. No outward force is required to punish the law breaker. . . It is a natural consequence.

What is natural about the lake of fire? Is nature self acting?

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147057
11/17/12 05:06 AM
11/17/12 05:06 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Posts: 3,613
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APL will not hear.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Mountain Man] #147058
11/17/12 08:52 AM
11/17/12 08:52 AM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
Being descriptive, the consequences for breaking these laws are intrinsic. No outward force is required to punish the law breaker. . . It is a natural consequence.

What is natural about the lake of fire? Is nature self acting?
Originally Posted By: EGW
God destroys no man; but after a time the wicked are given up to the destruction they have wrought for themselves. {YI, November 30, 1893 par. 6}
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Exodus 24:17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Psalms 15:1 Lord, who shall abide in your tabernacle? who shall dwell in your holy hill?
Psalms 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
Isaiah 33:14-15 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness has surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? 15 He that walks righteously, and speaks uprightly; he that despises the gain of oppressions, that shakes his hands from holding of bribes, that stops his ears from hearing of blood, and shuts his eyes from seeing evil;


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #147059
11/17/12 09:14 AM
11/17/12 09:14 AM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
APL will not hear.
James, did you get a chance to read "The Ministry of Healing" chapter 41 yet? If not, do read the whole chapter, but be not like pharaoh who hardened his heart. Your enthusiasm and knowledge could be put to good use. Consider: 1 Peter 2:20; Matthew 5:23, 24; Proverbs 15:1; Romans 12:21; Psalm 37:5, 6; Luke 12:2; Psalm 66:12


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147073
11/17/12 04:18 PM
11/17/12 04:18 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: APL
M: What is natural about the lake of fire? Is nature self acting?

A: God destroys no man; but after a time the wicked are given up to the destruction they have wrought for themselves. {YI, November 30, 1893 par. 6}

Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Exodus 24:17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Psalms 15:1 Lord, who shall abide in your tabernacle? who shall dwell in your holy hill?
Psalms 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
Isaiah 33:14-15 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness has surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? 15 He that walks righteously, and speaks uprightly; he that despises the gain of oppressions, that shakes his hands from holding of bribes, that stops his ears from hearing of blood, and shuts his eyes from seeing evil;

Love the quotes. Thank you. But I'm not sure how you are using them to answer my questions. Does sinning cause fire to rain down and consume sinners in a lake of fire? Are the forces of nature self acting? Or, does God employ them to accomplishes His purposes? Ellen White wrote:

Quote:
The material world is under God's control. The laws that govern all nature are obeyed by nature. Everything speaks and acts the will of the Creator. The clouds, the rain, the dew, the sunshine, the showers, the wind, the storm, all are under the supervision of God, and yield implicit obedience to Him who employs them. The tiny spear of grass bursts its way through the earth, first the blade, then the ear, and then the full corn in the ear. The Lord uses these, His obedient servants, to do His will. The fruit is first seen in the bud, enclosing the future pear, peach, or apple, and the Lord develops these in their proper season, because they do not resist His working. They do not oppose the order of His arrangements. His works, as seen in the natural world, are not one half comprehended or appreciated. These silent preachers will teach human beings their lessons, if they will only be attentive hearers. {LHU 66.2}

These words of Holy Writ say nothing of the independent laws of nature. God furnishes the matter and the properties with which to carry out His plans. He employs His agencies that vegetation may flourish. He sends the dew and the rain and the sunshine, that verdure may spring forth, and spread its carpet over the earth; that the shrubs and fruit trees may bud and blossom and bring forth. It is not to be supposed that a law is set in motion for the seed to work itself, that the leaf appears because it must do so of itself. God has laws that He has instituted, but they are only the servants through which He effects results. It is through the immediate agency of God that every tiny seed breaks through the earth, and springs into life. Every leaf grows, every flower blooms, by the power of God. {1SM 294.2}

The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. As men have beheld burning mountains pouring forth fire and flames and torrents of melted ore, drying up rivers, overwhelming populous cities, and everywhere spreading ruin and desolation, the stoutest heart has been filled with terror and infidels and blasphemers have been constrained to acknowledge the infinite power of God. {PP 109.1}

The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {1SP 84.3}

In the day of the Lord, just before the coming of Christ, God will send lightnings from heaven in his wrath, which will unite with fire in the earth. The mountains will burn like a furnace, and will pour forth terrible streams of lava, destroying gardens and fields, villages and cities; and as they pour their melted ore, rocks and heated mud, into the rivers, will cause them to boil like a pot, and send forth massive rocks, and scatter their broken fragments upon the land with indescribable violence. Whole rivers will be dried up. The earth will be convulsed, and there will be dreadful eruptions and earthquakes everywhere. God will plague the wicked inhabitants of the earth until they are destroyed from off it. The saints are preserved in the earth in the midst of these dreadful commotions, as Noah was preserved in the ark at the time of the flood. {1SP 84.4}

Those majestic trees which God had caused to grow upon the earth, for the benefit of the inhabitants of the old world, and which they had used to form into idols, and to corrupt themselves with, God has reserved in the earth, in the shape of coal and oil to use as agencies in their final destruction. As he called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the flood, as weapons from his arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years he will call forth the fires in the earth as his weapons which he has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the flood. {3SG 87.1}

The forces of nature are tools which God employs to bless, and weapons He employs to curse and destroy. Nature is clearly not self acting. It obeys God.

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #147086
11/17/12 11:09 PM
11/17/12 11:09 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Lets not forget what the subject is please. I entered this thread to comment on what Penal substitution is and how it is essential to how God saves us, and you put your sites on showing me how wrong I am, but you have not even begun to realize that what you have been saying is only one piece of the puzzle and you're not seeing the big picture APL. Now you're talking about the forces of nature?

Jesus died specifically in the way we would have if we had not received Him, He died the second death for us so we don't have to. This is by definition Penal substitution though I had never been told to call it that before.

This IS the plan of salvation, and all the rest of it are small details in the big picture. You obviously have the intent of showing me I'm wrong on this, but I have been taught these things from a greater influence than you could ever pull off believe me.

So in answer to your over repeated question, yes I do know what forgiveness is, do you?


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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