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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Mountain Man] #147133
11/19/12 12:02 AM
11/19/12 12:02 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Yes, the wages of sin is second death. All have sinned. Therefore, all deserve to die the second death. But the second death is not the result of cause and effect natural law. Sinning will not cause fire to rain down.
To this, I do have to disagree. The second death is intrinsic to sin. It is, cause and effect. If it is not, then yes, we have a legal religion. The only reason we die, is because God is mad at us for breaking His rules, and then will kill those who do. Love me, or I will kill you. We should be afraid of a God like that. One who will exercise force to get His way. But is this really who God is?
Originally Posted By: EGW/DA
The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Malachi 4:2. {DA 22.1}
The fire that comes down from God, is the glory of His presence. And it will destroy sin.
Originally Posted By: EGW/MB
If you cling to self, refusing to yield your will to God, you are choosing death. To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire. If you choose sin, and refuse to separate from it, the presence of God, which consumes sin, must consume you. {MB 62.1}
It is not moral influence, it is not penal substitution, it is trust/healing.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Mountain Man] #147134
11/19/12 12:07 AM
11/19/12 12:07 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Yes, the wages of sin is second death. All have sinned. Therefore, all deserve to die the second death.


Yes perfect.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
But the second death is not the result of cause and effect natural law. Sinning will not cause fire to rain down.


I'm not following this Brother. The fire that comes down from heaven is for the cleansing of the earth, to rid her of the plague of sin, and it is in direct result of the sins committed here.

Since the presence of the Father is a consuming fire and we are cut off from God by sin, then for Him to reclaim earth will naturally result in the fires of hell, but He only reveals Himself at the moment needed for the effect.

Here is something to think about.

The fire that burned the sacrifices was symbolic of the cleansing of the earth correct?

Jesus died the second death in Gethsemane and this is symbolized by the Red Heifer being burned while it's blood was running and flung in the direction of the temple.

Jesus endured hell as a direct result of receiving our sins upon His head.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Johann] #147138
11/19/12 04:44 AM
11/19/12 04:44 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: asygo
[quote=APL][quote=asygo]The "healing-only" logic:
Christ's death, the atonement, the sin problem, and the related topics that we have been discussing are not physical issues. We might have physical problems, but God's plan of salvation was not implemented in order to fix my bad back. The problem is moral. Our physical ailments are a Red Herring at best. Our depravity is the crux of the matter.


Have you read the Ministry of Healing? Is this taught there?

I have, and I don't think so. But I'm not as familiar with that book as others. However, it is taught in Romans 8:7, among other places.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: asygo] #147142
11/19/12 06:01 AM
11/19/12 06:01 AM
APL  Offline
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asygo - The mind is dependant on the body, for nurishment and health. Yes, your bad back can be affected by your spiritual health. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. All sickness is the result of the work of the adversary. Read the first paragraph of the book, The Ministry of Healing!
Originally Posted By: EGW
Our Lord Jesus Christ came to this world as the unwearied servant of man's necessity. He "took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses," that He might minister to every need of humanity. Matthew 8:17. The burden of disease and wretchedness and sin He came to remove. It was His mission to bring to men complete restoration; He came to give them health and peace and perfection of character. {MH 17.1}
The Plan of Redemption was precisely designed to fix your bad back. And all of our maladies.

Here are some more quotes on the relationship of the body and the mind.

Originally Posted By: EGW
Virtue of character depends upon the right action of the powers of the mind and body.--Counsels on Health, p. 505. {CME 31.1}

The Health to Be Guarded.--Since the mind and the soul find expression through the body, both mental and spiritual vigor are in great degree dependent upon physical strength and activity; whatever promotes physical health, promotes the development of a strong mind and a well-balanced character. Without health, no one can as distinctly understand or as completely fulfill his obligations to himself, to his fellow beings, or to his Creator. Therefore the health should be as faithfully guarded as the character. A knowledge of physiology and hygiene should be the basis of all educational effort. {CG 360.4}

The paralytic found in Christ healing for both the soul and the body. The spiritual healing was followed by physical restoration. This lesson should not be overlooked. There are today thousands suffering from physical disease, who, like the paralytic, are longing for the message, "Thy sins are forgiven." The burden of sin, with its unrest and unsatisfied desires, is the foundation of their maladies. They can find no relief until they come to the Healer of the soul. The peace which He alone can give, would impart vigor to the mind, and health to the body. {DA 270.1}
Jesus came to "destroy the works of the devil." "In Him was life," and He says, "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." He is "a quickening spirit." 1 John 3:8; John 1:4; 10:10; 1 Corinthians 15:45. And He still has the same life-giving power as when on earth He healed the sick, and spoke forgiveness to the sinner. He "forgiveth all thine iniquities," He "healeth all thy diseases." Psalm 103:3. {DA 270.2}

Since the mind and the soul find expression through the body, both mental and spiritual vigor are in great degree dependent upon physical strength and activity; whatever promotes physical health, promotes the development of a strong mind and a well-balanced character. Without health no one can as distinctly understand or as completely fulfill his obligations to himself, to his fellow beings, or to his Creator. Therefore the health should be as faithfully guarded as the character. A knowledge of physiology and hygiene should be the basis of all educational effort. {Ed 195.1}

The body is the only medium through which the mind and the soul are developed for the upbuilding of character. Hence it is that the adversary of souls directs his temptations to the enfeebling and degrading of the physical powers. His success here means the surrender to evil of the whole being. The tendencies of our physical nature, unless under the dominion of a higher power, will surely work ruin and death. {MH 130.1}

...Christ, the healer of the soul as well as of the body. {MH 223.2}

There is an intimate relation between the mind and the body, and in order to reach a high standard of moral and intellectual attainment the laws that control our physical being must be heeded. To secure a strong, well-balanced character, both the mental and the physical powers must be exercised and developed. What study can be more important for the young than that which treats of this wonderful organism that God has committed to us, and of the laws by which it may be preserved in health? {PP 601.1}

The body is a most important medium through which the mind and the soul are developed for the upbuilding of character. Hence it is that the adversary of souls directs his temptations to the enfeebling and degrading of the physical powers. His success here often means the surrender of the whole being to evil. The tendencies of the physical nature, unless under the dominion of a higher power, will surely work ruin and death. The body is to be brought into subjection to the higher powers of the being. The passions are to be controlled by the will, which is itself to be under the control of God. The kingly power of reason, sanctified by divine grace, is to bear sway in the life. Intellectual power, physical stamina, and the length of life depend upon immutable laws. Through obedience to these laws, man may stand conqueror of himself, conqueror of his own inclinations, conqueror of principalities and powers, of "the rulers of the darkness of this world," and of "spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12. {PK 488.4}
In that ancient ritual which is the gospel in symbol, no blemished offering could be brought to God's altar. The sacrifice that was to represent Christ must be spotless. The word of God points to this as an illustration of what His children are to be--"a living sacrifice," "holy and without blemish." Romans 12:1; Ephesians 5:27. {PK 489.1}

One of the strongest temptations that man has to meet is upon the point of appetite. Between the mind and the body there is a mysterious and wonderful relation. They react upon each other. To keep the body in a healthy condition to develop its strength, that every part of the living machinery may act harmoniously, should be the first study of our life. To neglect the body is to neglect the mind. It cannot be to the glory of God for His children to have sickly bodies or dwarfed minds. To indulge the taste at the expense of health is a wicked abuse of the senses. Those who engage in any species of intemperance, either in eating or drinking, waste their physical energies and weaken moral power. They will feel the retribution which follows the transgression of physical law. [cause and effect/APL] {3T 485.3}

They should give far more attention to the preservation of physical health, for vigor of mind depends largely upon vigor of body. Proper periods of sleep and rest and an abundance of physical exercise are essential to health of body and mind. To rob nature of her hours for rest and recuperation by allowing one man to do the work of four, or of three, or even of two, will result in irreparable loss. {7T 247.1}
It is not moral influence. It is not penal substitution. It is trust/healing.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147150
11/19/12 03:16 PM
11/19/12 03:16 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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You keep arguing as if I disagree with what you quote. I have never disagreed with anything Mrs White EVER said, even in the beginning when she was wrong she was corrected in the perfect will of the Father. God led her to it and through it, and in her writings are found the truth in verity.

But why do you quote what she says to build a new foundation?

Show me the words 'Penal substitution' in the word of God.

Show me the words 'Moral influence'.

We should be focused on the word of God.

My bible says; Psalm 51:7

"Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow."

Do you know how this is done? I was shown how this is done through the Spirit of Prophecy which MUST be balanced if you want to receive the full picture.

Agreeing with everything you quoted, (not the way you intended)
it must strike the perfect balance with this statement also.

"The body of the heifer was burned to ashes, which signified a whole and ample sacrifice. The ashes were then gathered up by a person uncontaminated by contact with the dead and placed in a vessel containing water from a running stream. This clean and pure person then took a cedar stick with scarlet cloth and a bunch of hyssop, and sprinkled the contents of the vessel upon the tent and the people assembled. This ceremony was repeated several times in order to be thorough and was done as a purification from sin. {4T 121.3}
Thus Christ, in His own spotless righteousness, after shedding His precious blood, enters into the holy place to cleanse the sanctuary. And there the crimson current is brought into the service of reconciling God to man. Some may look upon this slaying of the heifer as a meaningless ceremony, but it was done by the command of God and bears a deep significance that has not lost its application to the present time. {4T 122.1}
The priest used cedar and hyssop, dipping them into the cleansing water and sprinkling the unclean. This symbolized the blood of Christ spilled to cleanse us from moral impurities. The repeated sprinklings illustrate the thoroughness of the work that must be accomplished for the repenting sinner. All that he has must be consecrated. Not only should his own soul be washed clean and pure, but he should strive to have his family, his domestic arrangements, his property, and his entire belongings consecrated to God. {4T 122.2}
"After the tent had been sprinkled with hyssop, over the door of those cleansed was written: I am not my own; Lord, I am Thine. Thus should it be with those who profess to be cleansed by the blood of Christ. God is no less exacting now than He was in olden times. The psalmist, in his prayer, refers to this symbolic ceremony when he says: “Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.” “Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.” “Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation; and uphold me with Thy free spirit.” {4T 122.3}
The blood of Christ is efficacious, but it needs to be applied continually. God not only wants His servants to use the means He has entrusted to them for His glory, but He desires them to make a consecration of themselves to His cause. If you, my brethren, have become selfish and are withholding from the Lord that which you should cheerfully give to His service, then you need the blood of sprinkling thoroughly applied, consecrating you and all your possessions to God. {4T 122.4}

Do you know how to receive this?


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #147152
11/19/12 03:35 PM
11/19/12 03:35 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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I am here to teach people about this issue, sent by God. If you want to receive it, it is all yours. If you reject it, there is no one else to blame but yourself when it is revealed how you abused God's messenger.

Peace.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #147154
11/19/12 04:08 PM
11/19/12 04:08 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jsot
You keep arguing as if I disagree with what you quote.
WHO are you talking to? Who is "you" in you comment?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Mountain Man] #147156
11/19/12 04:59 PM
11/19/12 04:59 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
Do we misrepresent God when we charge Him with executing the sentence against sin?

Sin is real. It is physical. It will kill you. The wages of sin is death, not execution by God.

Yes, the glory of God is a consuming fire. The fact sinful flesh melts in the presence of God is natural cause and effect. "Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth." And fire rained down from heaven is also a consuming fire. "Fire came down from God out of heaven . . . whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." However, God, not sin, will rain down fire to punish and destroy sinners. Hellfire and brimstone is not self acting - it obeys the will of God.

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Mountain Man] #147157
11/19/12 05:30 PM
11/19/12 05:30 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
The second death is intrinsic to sin. It is, cause and effect. If it is not, then yes, we have a legal religion. The only reason we die, is because God is mad at us for breaking His rules, and then will kill those who do. Love me, or I will kill you. We should be afraid of a God like that. One who will exercise force to get His way. But is this really who God is?

Executing justice is not exercising force. Nor is it a form of "Love me or I'll kill you". Ellen White wrote:

Quote:
"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

The dreadful scene described above will not be caused by the radiant brightness of God's glory. The elements that will cause the lake of fire wherein sinners will suffer and perish will be but obeying God. He will employ them to punish and destroy sinners according to their words and works. These elements are not "self acting," that is, they will not punish and destroy sinners in response to their sinfulness. God - not sinning, not nature - will wield the arsenals of nature to execute justice. Ellen White wrote:

Quote:
God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that "the wages of sin is death," that every violation of God's law must receive its just retribution. Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father's face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. All this sacrifice was made that sinners might be redeemed. In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression. {DD 16.4}

God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is nonetheless certain and terrible because it is long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {DD 43.4}

The forbearance that God has exercised toward the wicked, emboldens men in transgression; but their punishment will be none the less certain and terrible for being long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7. While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some He must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. And the very fact of His reluctance to execute justice testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor. {PP 628.1}

Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary.

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Mountain Man] #147158
11/19/12 05:31 PM
11/19/12 05:31 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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As they reasoned in Noah's day they reason today, when the warning message is proclaimed to fear God and keep His commandments. The wrath of God is soon to fall on all the sinful and disobedient, and they will perish in the general conflagration. Professed servants of Christ who are unfaithful, who do not reverence God and with fear prepare for the terrible future event, will lull themselves to carnal security with their fallacious reasoning, as they did in Noah's day. "God is too good and too merciful [they reason] to save just a few who keep the Sabbath and believe the message of warning. The great men and the good men, the philosophers and men of wisdom would see the Sabbath and the shortness of time, if it were true." They do not believe a merciful God who made men will consume them with fire because they do not believe the warnings given. This, they reason, is not in accordance with God. . . . {12MR 207.1}

God's love is represented in our day as being of such a character as would forbid His destroying the sinner. Men reason from their own low standard of right and justice. "Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself" (Psalm 50:21). They measure God by themselves. They reason as to how they would act under the circumstances and decide God would do as they imagine they would do. {12MR 207.2}

God's goodness and long forbearance, His patience and mercy exercised to His subjects, will not hinder Him from punishing the sinner who refused to be obedient to His requirements. It is not for a man--a criminal against God's holy law, pardoned only through the great sacrifice He made in giving His Son to die for the guilty because His law was changeless--to dictate to God. After all this effort on the part of God to preserve the sacred and exalted character of His law, if men, through the sophistry of the devil, turn the mercy and condescension of God into a curse, they must suffer the penalty. Because Christ died they consider they have liberty to transgress God's holy law that condemns the transgressor, and would complain of its strictness and its penalty as severe and unlike God. They are uttering the words Satan utters to millions, to quiet their conscience in rebellion against God. {12MR 208.1}

In no kingdom or government is it left to the lawbreakers to say what punishment is to be executed against those who have broken the law. All we have, all the bounties of His grace which we possess, we owe to God. The aggravating character of sin against such a God cannot be estimated any more than the heavens can be measured with a span. God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the Lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force. {12MR 208.2}

The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice.--Ms 5, 1876, pp. 1-3.

White Estate Washington, D. C. January 6, 1983 {12MR 208.3}

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