Forgiveness is not dependent upon our lives first being cleaned up.
Forgiveness and sanctification are not the same thing.

Christ took our sins upon Himself and suffered the penalty, that we might be declared as IF WE HAD NEVER SINNED.

It is only in understanding this that we can then be CLEANSED, CHANGED, not because we do it to be forgiven (trying to merit forgiveness), but because Christ has forgiven us as we come to Him with a contrite heart (unmerited grace) and gives us a clean slate.

Forgiveness is a gift, totally unmerited, unearned.

Hmmm

Is fire natural? Fire is ignited as the natural consequences of striking a match, collecting the rays of the sun, etc.

Have you read the Ministry of Healing? Is this taught there?

Context is everything, eh! Yes, fire is natural. But the question is - Does sinning cause fire to rain down and burn sinners in a lake of fire? For example, does telling a lie cause fire to rain down in the same way touching a hot stove burns your finger? Is there a cause and effect relationship between sinning and fire raining down? Or, will Jesus employ the forces of nature to punish and destroy sinners in the lake of fire?

Please consider this:

Deuteronomy 8:14-15 Then your heart be lifted up, and you forget the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage; 15 Who led you through that great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought, where there was no water; who brought you forth water out of the rock of flint;

Numbers 21:5-6 And the people spoke against God, and against Moses, Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loathes this light bread. 6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

You can interpret this several ways. The Bible says, "God sent the serpents". What is the reality? First, they were there all the time, the miracle is not God sending them, but that they did not bite the people all the time! By the peoples ingratitude, their refusal to trust God, God had to remove his protection. So it is not that God sent the serpents, but he removed His protection.Three things Satan is doing:
1) misrepresenting the character of God
2) the nature of sin
3) and the real issues at stake in the Great Controversy.

Do we misrepresent God when we charge Him with executing the sentence against sin? Make Him the exacting creditor and severe. What is the nature of sin? Several ways to look at this issue too, such as, what is the wages of sin, execution or natural consequences? Intrinsic punishment, or imposed? Another is what really is sin, is it just an abnormal thought pattern or is sin REAL, and physical? Sin causes all creation to groan together. Sin affects every living organism. And the biggy, what are the real issues in the controversy???? (See GC chapter 29) If there a law, then do we have freedom?

The serpents are a type. God is holding back the winds of strife. God has prevented the natural consequences of sin to be manifest. (See PP, chapter 1). By rejecting God, the Children of Israel put God in a situation where he could no longer protect them, He had to withdraw his protection. And what was the result? Death and destruction. The Bible says that God brought this on the people. God does take responsibility. But we can see the true light of what was happening.

In the end, when the judgement is over, the universe will revert back to its normal state. All will see God, and the wicked will be destroyed, for God is a consuming fire to the wicked. If you want to see this as an imposed penalty, and execution, so be it. I don't. I see this as a natural consequence. I see sin as something real. From the Bible (Romans 5:12-19) sin is inherited. EGW is clear, that sin is inherited and cultivated. (I have 65+ pages of quoted from her to back this up) If sin is inherited, then it has to be in the DNA. Just look at cancer, this is the DNA gone bad. I have hundreds of examples... DNA today is fragile, in the presence of high energy sources, heat, E&M fields, ionizing radiation, it disintegrates. And where and how can be explained, and it is in the added DNA. Yeah, our genomes is full of added, non-original DNA. I can quote you hundreds of scientific papers, yeah they are by evolutionists, but evolutionists that had no clue why all the added DNA is there. They even call it selfish DNA, because its will destroy the host in order to reproduce itself.

In the beginning of sin on earth, God said, Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
And the 10C - - what about the Sabbath? I believe it is encoded in our DNA, and in the DNA of all living things. I don't have enough science yet to prove this, I have to take the Sabbath by faith. Google, circaseptan. Many articles hedge on this, but the evidence now is that all living organisms have a 7-day cycle. ALL. And it is encoded in the DNA. In fact, it is probably THE commandment that nails God as the creator. Nothing arbitrary about the Sabbath.

Is the death of Christ only moral influence? Hardly.
Is the death of Christ penal substitution? Christ did come and took on our diseases (Matt 8:17; Isaiah 53:3-4) do that he may know how to succor us, and "by His knowledge", His Grace, (Isaiah 53:11; Titus 3:5-7) he will justify (set right) many. Yes, He took the punishment that all sinners will experience. But is the punishment execution by God? Hardly. It is the intrinsic effect of sin. Something that the universe would not have understood in the beginning of sin, thus God allowed sin for a time.

No lest people want to accuse me of claiming we are to obtain "holy flesh", let me quote EGW:
Sin is real. It is physical. It will kill you. The wages of sin is death, not execution by God. Christ was made to be sin! The following verses then depict the REAL situation. Christ literally bore our our sins, in His own body. No legal transfer. It was not a LEGAL solution. It was a real, literal, physical solution. He solved the sin problem in His own body. And it killed Him. Not execution on the cross, that is now what killed Him.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live to righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed.

Hebrews 1:1-3 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 Has in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Hebrews 2:14-18 For as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For truly he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Why in all things it behooved him to be made like to his brothers, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted.

There are two concepts in the Greek that are taught for the English word translated Forgive. I agree that God does not hold anything against us. He is forgiveness personified. But this is not the concept as used in 1 John 1:9. I would suggest the audio recordings of Adventist evangelist (teller of good news) Herb Montgomery, found here:
http://renewedheartministries.com/AudioPresentationList.aspx

I would listen to 1) Charizomai, and 2) Intrinsic or Imposed.

Jsot - you claim that you have great influence with our ideas. If you express them with the same tone of voice like you write here on these forums, I'm sure you are having a great influence. How is the reading of Chapter 41 going?

Yes, the glory of God is a consuming fire. The fact sinful flesh melts in the presence of God is natural cause and effect. "Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth." And fire rained down from heaven is also a consuming fire. "Fire came down from God out of heaven . . . whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." However, God, not sin, will rain down fire to punish and destroy sinners. Hellfire and brimstone is not self acting - it obeys the will of God.

But the wages of sin is death. Does that distinguish between telling a lie or committing adultery? All have sinned.

Yes, the wages of sin is second death. All have sinned. Therefore, all deserve to die the second death. But the second death is not the result of cause and effect natural law. Sinning will not cause fire to rain down.