MM - you idea of punishment and mine are different. There is not doubt, the wicked will die. It will be awful. You see God as the executioner. I see the results as intrinsic. The "according to their deeds" is as cause and effect. All we need to do is look at the cross of Calvary. Did Jesus die the death of a sinner? Did God execute Jesus? The destruction of Jerusalem is an example, "Christ saw in Jerusalem a symbol of the world hardened in unbelief and rebellion, and hastening on to meet the retributive judgments of God.{GC 22.1} How did God destroy Jerusalem?

Exodus 34:6-7 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the children's children, to the third and to the fourth generation.

Yes, the wicked will be destroyed. The wages of sin is death. God has stayed the process. The time will come when He will no longer do so. Jesus is the clear example of God's roll in the process. That is where we should look.

[quote=APL I see the results as intrinsic. The "according to their deeds" is as cause and effect. All we need to do is look at the cross of Calvary. Did Jesus die the death of a sinner? Did God execute Jesus? The destruction of Jerusalem is an example, "Christ saw in Jerusalem a symbol of the world hardened in unbelief and rebellion, and hastening on to meet the retributive judgments of God.{GC 22.1} How did God destroy Jerusalem?

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Yes, the wicked will be destroyed. The wages of sin is death. God has stayed the process. The time will come when He will no longer do so. Jesus is the clear example of God's roll in the process. That is where we should look. [/quote]

Ellen White has much to say about cause and effect. That is a very helpful study.

YOU. Or don't you agree about that either APL? Couldn't you tell who I was addressing by the quotes from Mrs White that directly contradicted your statements? Aren't you even concentrating on this conversation? Or are you just saying things to be contentious?

Yes, the plan of redemption encompasses physical ailments, but that is a far cry from saying that Jesus died to heal your dog's cancer.

Are you saying that if Jesus did not come and die on the cross, He would not have been able to heal a broken leg? Or a palsied hand? Or a broken neck?

The sinner could not come in his own person, with his guilt upon him, and with no greater merit than he possessed in himself. Christ alone could open the way, by making an offering equal to the demands of the divine law. {RH, December 17, 1872 par. 8}

The offering was designed to meet the demands of the divine law. Those demands are not physical in nature. Yes, physical ailments will be fixed, but that's not THE problem to be fixed.

I'm reminded of the debates I've had with people who claim that Jesus died in order to cure roses of their thorns and other such damage that sin has caused our planet.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

You ask open ended questions and do not follow through with an answer. You asked "how did God destroy Jerusalem?"

"Signs and wonders appeared, foreboding disaster and doom. In the midst of the night an unnatural light shone over the temple and the altar. Upon the clouds at sunset were pictured chariots and men of war gathering for battle. The priests ministering by night in the sanctuary were terrified by mysterious sounds; the earth trembled, and a multitude of voices were heard crying: “Let us depart hence.” The great eastern gate, which was so heavy that it could hardly be shut by a score of men, and which was secured by immense bars of iron fastened deep in the pavement of solid stone, opened at midnight, without visible agency.—Milman, The History of the Jews, book 13. {GC 29.3}

So who opened the Eastern Gate? Who's men of war and chariots shadows were seen on the clouds?

"how did God destroy Jerusalem?" I ask in response, How did God destroy the earth with a flood? How did He destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? Your logic is failing.

"A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians, and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when he allows. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {4SP 441.1}

You make it sound as if God does not do the destruction. I am saying that God does the destruction even when He allows evil angels to do it for Him. If we reject Christ then there are many ways God can destroy the wicked. The ultimate 2nd death comes directly from God.

“Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.” “The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter.” “Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.” Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth’s surface seems one molten mass—a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men—“the day of the Lord’s vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.” Isaiah 34:8. {DD 59.3}

"Before the destruction of Sodom, God sent a message to Lot, “Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.” The same voice of warning was heard by the disciples of Christ before the destruction of Jerusalem: “When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains.” Luke 21:20, 21. They must not tarry to secure anything from their possessions, but must make the most of the opportunity to escape. {PP 166.3}
There was a coming out, a decided separation from the wicked, an escape for life. So it was in the days of Noah; so with Lot; so with the disciples prior to the destruction of Jerusalem; and so it will be in the last days. Again the voice of God is heard in a message of warning, bidding His people separate themselves from the prevailing iniquity. {PP 166.4}

Jesus experienced the wrath of the Father against sin for us to be saved then gave us prophetic warnings on how to get away from the coming destruction, if we do not listen that is a sin also.

“Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father’s wrath upon Him as man’s substitute that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God. {DA 753.2}

“…Separation from His Father, the punishment for transgression and sin, was to fall upon Him in order to magnify God's law and testify to its immutability. And this was to settle forever the controversy between the Prince of God and Satan in regard to the changeless character of that law”.
EGW (2nd death)

Do you argue against this?

"Jesus told them that He would stand between the wrath of His Father and guilty man, that He would bear iniquity and scorn, and but few would receive Him as the Son of God." {EW 149.3}

"No sorrow can bear any comparison with the sorrow of Him upon whom the wrath of God fell with overwhelming force. Human nature can endure but a limited amount of test and trial. The finite can only endure the finite measure, and human nature succumbs; but the nature of Christ had a greater capacity for suffering; for the human existed in the divine nature, and created a capacity for suffering to endure that which resulted from the sins of a lost world. The agony which Christ endured, broadens, deepens, and gives a more extended conception of the character of sin, and the character of the retribution which God will bring upon those who continue in sin. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ to the repenting, believing sinner (Manuscript 35, 1895). {5BC 1103.4}

"Christ felt much as sinners will feel when the vials of God’s wrath shall be poured out upon them. Black despair, like the pall of death, will gather about their guilty souls, and then they will realize to the fullest extent the sinfulness of sin. Salvation has been purchased for them by the suffering and death of the Son of God. It might be theirs, if they would accept of it willingly, gladly; but none are compelled to yield obedience to the law of God. If they refuse the heavenly benefit and choose the pleasures and deceitfulness of sin, they have their choice, and at the end receive their wages, which is the wrath of God and eternal death. They will be forever separated from the presence of Jesus, whose sacrifice they had despised. They will have lost a life of happiness and sacrificed eternal glory for the pleasures of sin for a season. {2T 210.1}

Sounds like Mrs White DID NOT agree with YOU APL.

The wrath of God did fall on His Son, and this is where we should look if we do not want to receive that wrath ourselves.

You APL, have attempted to discredit what my God showed me and you will proven wrong eventually. I am asking you to reconsider before it's too late because only one of us can be right here.

I was given a vision that you seem to want to contend with. Why?

Please explain the following insights:

1. While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law.
2. And the very fact of His reluctance to execute justice testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor.
3. The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them.
4. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary.

Also, please explain each sentence in the following paragraph. And, in particular, point out which ones support the idea hellfire and brimstone is intrinsic, cause and effect. Thank you.

PS - Please explain each insight and each sentence. Please do not skip over any. Thank you.

The idea that Jesus and Jerusalem are examples of how God will execute justice (punish resurrected sinners) implies He will crucify them and/or allow soldiers to kill them. What do you believe it means?

Yes, Jesus dies for our sins. Yes, Jesus died so we can meet the demands of the law. The demands of the law have not changed, and can not be changed. Thus, there is nothing legal that can satisfy the law. "The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. {DA 762.2}" There is nothing legal that solves this issue. Man must be restored, healed, or man will not meet the demands of the law. "But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Romans 3:26. {DA 762.2}". Salvation requires a total transformation, not a legal solution (which does not exist).
The physical ailments are a consequence of sin. Are you saying they are not? A dog getting cancer is a consequence of sin. Are you saying it is not? There is however a much deeper issue in how I understand sin, and that is how deeply it is embedded in the human organism. How to remove sin, and keep you, you, is not a trivial problem. And it tested the Godhead.

There have been many published papers that relate human behavior to our genetic code, both at the base pair level and the epigenome. Certain human behaviors can be predicted based on knowing certain allele types. Selfish and/or benevolent behaviors with a certain amount of accuracy, 75-80%. But not 100%. Our genetic code pushes us, tempts us, but does not force us to certain behaviors. We can resist the temptations, but it is from the power of God. Genesis 3:15 comes into play. Reject the prodding of the Holy Spirit long enough, and we will not respond.

There is an interesting animal model. Google monogamous voles. A tiny little change in the genetic code, is the difference between voles which are monogamous and those that are promiscuous. Moral behavior is tightly tied to the underlying hardware, but does not determine it.

One of the worst crimes the antediluvian world did was genetic engineering. "But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction of the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation of man and beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere. {3SG 64.1}"

Remedies That Cleanse the System.--Christ never planted the seeds of death in the system. Satan planted these seeds when he tempted Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge which meant disobedience to God. Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of the sower the question was asked the master, "Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?" The master answered, "An enemy hath done this" (Matthew 13:27, 28). All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation [genetic engineering] he has corrupted the earth with tares. {2SM 288.2

Every species of animals which God had created was preserved in the ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood, there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men. {1SP 78.2}

The genetic code is an information system. It is the law on how we operate. The works of God are perfect, Deuteronomy 31:4

The code has been rewritten, and not by God. Satan is the "author of sin". This is not a metaphor. "A great work can be done by presenting to the people the Bible just as it reads. {5T 388.2} I use to read the Bible as metaphor. "Who bore our sin in His body on the tree", 1 Peter 2:24. I now read this literal.

The cure? Jesus Christ:
Hebrews 2:17, to make reconciliation for the sins (real, physical) of the people
Hebrews 2:18, able to succor them that are tempted
Hebrews 4:15 - but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin... (In taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. {5BC 1131.3})
John 17:19 - and for their sakes I sanctify myself, that them my be sanctified
Hebrews 5:9 - and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation to all them that obey him.