GC - WITHOUT CHRIST, WE HAVE NO HOPE!

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live to righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed.

Hebrews 2:17-18 Why in all things it behooved him to be made like to his brothers, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted.

In taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. {1SM 256.1}

What a sight was this for heaven to look upon. Christ, who knew not the least moral taint or defilement of sin, took our nature in its deteriorated condition. {16MR 115.3}
There was not a drop of bitter woe which He did not taste, not a part of the curse which He did not endure, that He might bring many sons and daughters to God. {16MR 116.1}
By taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. He was subject to the infirmities and weaknesses of the flesh with which humanity is encompassed, "that it might be fulfilled that was spoken by the prophet Esaias, Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." He was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was in all points tempted like as we are. And yet He was without a spot. {16MR 116.3}

Christ bore the sins and infirmities of the race as they existed when He came to the earth to help man. In behalf of the race, with the weaknesses of fallen man upon Him, He was to stand the temptations of Satan upon all points wherewith man would be assailed.--The Review and Herald, July 28, 1874.

Did Jesus literally carry our sin in His body on the Tree?
Was Jesus literally made to be sin for us?
Was he tempted in all ways just like us, having been made just like us, yet did not participate "in its sin".

Christ bore our sins, but was not a sinner. He resisted temptation aways.

Are we programmed to sin? WHO has not sinned, save Jesus Christ the Savior?
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 5:12 Why, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed on all men, for that all have sinned:
Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
Psalms 51:5 I have been evil from the day I was born; from the time I was conceived, I have been sinful.
Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Where is my error? You have not pointed that out. I acknowledge prenatal influences. No question! It was the study of prenatal influences, particularly in the area of epigenetics (do you know what epigenetics is?) when I pointed to the issue of added DNA into the system. Evolutionary scientists call the added DNA, "selfish DNA", their term, not mine. A simple example of added DNA is a virus. What is more selfish than a virus? Its whole goal is to take over a cell, and make more of itself, even if that cell is sacrificed in the process. EGW: "All sin is selfishness."

The question is, is sin a real problem, or is sin just a legal problem. If sin is just a legal problem, then explain how is affects all creation. EGW: "The evidences of the curse that came upon the earth because of sin, abound everywhere. The whole creation was involved, and today animals languish under this curse. {14MR 297.4} The pronouncments in Genesis 3:14, 16 and 18 can all be explained today from science by mobile genetic elements.

GC, a child can survive outside the womb very early on in life. True, in some cases it may require machines, but they are, nonetheless, very much alive and very much human. Thus, the biblical description of sinners applies to them. So, since it applies to them outside the womb, wouldn't it apply to them inside the womb?

I kind of liked where you were going with your last post, then you hit this wall, "If the DNA itself contained sin, then we would be trying to stamp it out by changing our DNA. Are we all to be genetic engineers by trade? If God is doing the "engineering," how is it that past sins, already confessed and forsaken, still affect our present health and condition?"

I provided a quote of EGW that addresses this.

As to the heredity/genetic paradigm, it is everywhere in the Bible!

• John 3:3-8 Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus said to him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said to you, You must be born again. 8 The wind blows where it wants, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell from where it comes, and where it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

• Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you be Christ's, then are you Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

• 1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knows us not, because it knew him not.

Perhaps there is a third option - 3) Sin is a real problem and a legal problem.

Past sins may be pardoned (legal) but the effects may linger on (real).

The physical effects of sinning can be seen and felt throughout the planet. Some of them are cause and effect (disease, crime, war, pollution). Others are forced (evil angels tampering with the laws of nature).

Morbid but true.

If you need to legal side, so be it. You have not addressed the question I've asked, is God's law 1) prescriptive, 2) proscriptive, or 3) descriptive. Perhaps no one even understands the question. 1) prescriptive, you must live like this, 2) proscriptive, you must not do this and that, and 3) descriptive, this is how life operates.

I still view sin from an illness module (Isaiah 53, Matthew 8:17). The illness is sin. The acts of sin, murder, stealing, lying, strife, are all "symptoms" of the disease. You will never cure a disease by controlling the symptoms. You need to get to the root cause. Paul controlled the "symptoms", but was still sinful (full of sin). EGW:

• Paul says that as "touching the righteousness which is in the law"--as far as outward acts were concerned --he was "blameless" (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. He says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9. When he saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem was gone. {SC 29.3}

So if we look at the outward acts, we can not discern whether these acts are loving or sinful. The acts of sin are just symptoms. Just look at the Madoff scandal, where he would give large sums of money to charities, not because of love, but to draw more people into his scam. His acts of charity were sin! So as with Paul, his outward acts were "right", but he was sinful. The Rich Young Ruler, the same thing! “All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?”, Matthew 19:20 And the Pharisees! Luke 18:11-12 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank you, that I am not as other men are, extortionists, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

When we get to heaven, will we forget our past? Our sins have been blotted out, right? When Uriah meets David and Bathsheba, and along comes Solomon, where there be any confusion as to whose son he is? Not at all. And it won't matter, all the outward things we do are symptoms of the disease. What we want to know, do we still have the disease or not? The disease will be gone. All who accept Jesus will be healed of the disease. There will be no more sin. And since there is no more sin, there will be no more symptoms of sin. Uriah will not need to fear that David will kill him again. (Is it not interesting the Uriah was a Hitite? But I digress....) Do you want to live next to a legally pardoned murderer and adulterer, David? Or do you want to live next to a David, whose heart had been renewed.

• Psalms 51:6-12 Behold, you desire truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part you shall make me to know wisdom. 7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which you have broken may rejoice. 9 Hide your face from my sins, and blot out all my iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from your presence; and take not your holy spirit from me. 12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation; and uphold me with your free spirit.

No, I don't think so. Maybe I hang around the wrong people. Or maybe I'm so messed up that I can't recognize it.

But then, God's promises are not dependent on my knowledge, or lack of it. And that's a good thing.


You've argued the same thing. You just call those elements holiness instead of sin.


I have the same answer today as when you asked me that the last time. I don't know.

And a rather large can it is.

That has always been the only valid option, IMO.

APL,

I'm still waiting for your explanation how dogs and trees get Adam's genes.