Did I say that we are required to have "holy flesh"? No. Do righteous people still die this side of the second coming? Yes.

• Romans 7:15-25
  15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.
  16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good.
  17 But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me.
  18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.
  19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.
  20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me.
  21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand.
  22 For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self,
  23 but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
  24 Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
  25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin.

EGW tells us this about God's law:

• God's law is written by His own finger upon every nerve, every muscle, every faculty which has been entrusted to man. {SpM 40.6}

Is she speaking metaphorically, or literally? I read her literally. And the only way I see to take this literally, is to look at where the law is encoded. And the information system of the body is the genome.

APL,

Let me suggest at least one other way of looking at it.

Addictions:

• Alcohol
• Caffeine
• Drugs
• Food
• Sex
• Tobacco
• etc.

Is all of this encoded in the genes? Or is it actually encoded in the body's chemical pathways? Can genes give us "desires?" If we "want" to sin, it was because it was "in our genes?" We had "no choice?"

You might as well just say "the devil made me do it."

The way in which you interpret Paul's statements appears to put them in direct contradiction to one of Jesus' own. He said "no man can serve two masters." How do you explain this?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Have you read the EGW quotes I presented? "Jesus took our nature, but never participated in its sin" {16MR 116.3} Jesus bore our sin in His body on the tree 1 Peter 2:24. He was made like His brothers, Hebrews 2:17. And this: Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
So your idea that if Christ took our nature, that he could not be the Savior fails.Please explain HOW sins were placed on Christ? Was it a legal transfer? Was Christ "perfect" before the cross? Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation to all them that obey him; John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Jesus was born with the same "sickness" we are born with. He worked out the plan of salvation in His life. He sanctified himself, so to be able to santify us. Temptation is not sin. He was tempted just as we are, yet without sin. He never participated in our sin. Yes, I know EGW's comments about Jesus' propensities very well. Are you saying Jesus could not be tempted? When did Satan try to tempt Jesus the hardest? When he had been without food for 40 days, in a very weak condition. And yet he did not fall.Are you claiming we have the ability in ourselves to not sin? Jesus said, John 15:5 for without me you can do nothing. Without Christ, we are totally lost. The only way we can withstand temptation is by Christ.Hm - All have sinned, Romans 3:23. EGW: "The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. {DA 762.2}"EGW: Christ took our nature but "did not participate in its sin". Righteous people get sick and die. Why? SIN. Having sin in our body, and participating with that sin are separate things. Did God put sin in our body? NO. Did I claim He did? NO. Who did? Satan. God's Curses - - did God cause evil or did He allow it?

• Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said to the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; on your belly shall you go, and dust shall you eat all the days of your life:

I think you have some science background, do I recall that? Why does a snake have so many thoracic vertebrae? Do you know? The paper on this was published recently. It is a transposon in the genes, an mobile genetic element, which has messed up the internal clock of the snake during embryogenesis.

• Genesis 3:17-18 And to Adam he said, Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it: cursed is the ground for your sake; in sorrow shall you eat of it all the days of your life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to you; and you shall eat the herb of the field;

The ground is cursed. Who cursed it? Who causes the thorns and thistles to form? God??? NO!!! All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares. {16MR 247.2} Amalgamation - genetic engineering. Do not say God causes all the grief that we now have. This is a charge involved in the great controversy. I think I already addressed the pain of childbirth in a prior post.

You say my error is to say that DNA transmits sin. I say yes! It transmits the disease sin. The symptoms of the disease is pointed out by the 10 commandments. The behavior is not sin, it is the symptoms. Christ took our nature, and cured it, He sanctified Himself for oursake. And when He had "purged our sin" he sat down at the right hand of the Father, Hebrews 1:3. Question - are your sins purged? If not, then what is Paul talking about? He had the same "sin" that we have, and He fixed the problem. This is the plan of Salvation! It is healing. It is not legal, this is not a legal solution, it is a real solution. The problem you have is that you can't believe that sin can be identified. But consider this, the wages of sin is death. If it could be shown that disease, aging, and death is caused by a problem in the genome, would that have any influence on you of what the nature of sin is? Remember, EGW tells us that one of the things that Satan is constantly representing is the "nature of sin", {GC 569.1}

We have choice, and I think the only reason we do is because God stepped in in the beginning. Read Genesis 3:15. To this point EGW says: But when Satan heard the declaration that enmity should exist between himself and the woman, and between his seed and her seed, he knew that his efforts to deprave human nature would be interrupted; that by some means man was to be enabled to resist his power. {GC 505.3}

Our brains have receptors for these substances. Where do these receptors come from? Are they not encoded in our genome? Are not all the receptors, and all the control of all cellular functions, the chemical pathways, controlled by the genome? Are there "pleasures" to sin? Hebrews 11:24-25 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

Do people expirence pleasures with sex, alchohol, nicotine, etc.? Many do! These things can kill them, and they still do them! Why? They are slave to them. I think I would be bold enough to say that ALL sin is addiction: John 8:34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, every one who commits sin is a slave to sin." But Christ is the answer: Romans 5:20 Law came in, to increase the trespass; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

Remember what EGW wrote in Steps to Christ.

• God's promise is, "Ye shall seek Me, and find Me, when ye shall search for Me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13. {SC 43.1}
  
  The whole heart must be yielded to God, or the change can never be wrought in us by which we are to be restored to His likeness. By nature we are alienated from God. The Holy Spirit describes our condition in such words as these: "Dead in trespasses and sins;" "the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint;" "no soundness in it." We are held fast in the snare of Satan, "taken captive by him at his will." Ephesians 2:1; Isaiah 1:5, 6; 2 Timothy 2:26. God desires to heal us, to set us free. But since this requires an entire transformation, a renewing of our whole nature, we must yield ourselves wholly to Him. {SC 43.2}
  
  The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God, requires a struggle; but the soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in holiness. {SC 43.3}

And I like the next paragraph.

• The government of God is not, as Satan would make it appear, founded upon a blind submission, an unreasoning control. It appeals to the intellect and the conscience. "Come now, and let us reason together" is the Creator's invitation to the beings He has made. Isaiah 1:18. God does not force the will of His creatures. He cannot accept an homage that is not willingly and intelligently given. A mere forced submission would prevent all real development of mind or character; it would make man a mere automaton. Such is not the purpose of the Creator. He desires that man, the crowning work of His creative power, shall reach the highest possible development. He sets before us the height of blessing to which He desires to bring us through His grace. He invites us to give ourselves to Him, that He may work His will in us. It remains for us to choose whether we will be set free from the bondage of sin, to share the glorious liberty of the sons of God. {SC 43.4}

The way we are set free from the "bondage of sin", our addictions, is Jesus Christ.

"It is the privilege of parents to take their children with them to the gates of the city of God, saying, “I have tried to instruct my children to love the Lord, to do His will, and to glorify Him.” To such the gate will be thrown open, and parents and children will enter in. But all cannot enter. Some are left outside with their children, whose characters have not been transformed by submission to the will of God. A hand is raised, and the words are spoken, “You have neglected home duties. You have failed to do the work that would have fitted the soul for a home in heaven. You cannot enter.” The gates are closed to the children because they have not learned to do the will of God, and to parents because they have neglected the responsibilities resting upon them. [Manuscript 31, 1909.] {CG 13.1}

Pray about this.

How can we have a record of sin if we have not been born yet? Does a baby come from the womb telling lies and chasing the nurses saying "Get me a drink doc"? No, but before our birth, because our parents are fallen since Adam, and because we are born in a fallen world to parents who have not been perfected, while still in the womb we develop characters prone to sin because we are not covered in righteousness. We develop the characters of our fathers, and mothers and brothers and friends because of our fallen nature.

"Parents have a more serious charge than they imagine. The inheritance of children is that of sin. Sin has separated them from God." {CG 475.3}

The sin that we inherit, and are born into, is not having God as our master in life yet; not having the law of liberty and the testimony of Jesus written in our hearts as Adam did at his creation.

Sin is the transgression of the law.

We are born selfish and when this is manifested we are breaking the first commandment. So this is the extent of our individual sins after birth. We are born without the knowledge of God, but He does not account this as our failure until the age of accountability. He holds our parents responsible for us, and since they are fallen, we are fallen. The advantage children have being born to sanctified mothers is the knowledge and teaching that can sanctify the children if their individual characters will accept it.

Would God burn an infant in hell? NO WAY!!!!!!!! If born to unsanctified parents they would come from the grave with the mother, and when the fires fall, they would vanish as if never born.

If all have sinned because they are born into this life then you are saying Jesus sinned by being born, and this is not true.

So logically what do you have left?

The exact moment of birth, we do not have a record of sin except our fallen nature inherited through our parents, but because we are born with the fallen nature of our fathers, we are cut off from the Father and in the fallen condition of our souls born without the white robe of innocence.

"The white robe of innocence was worn by our first parents when they were placed by God in holy Eden. They lived in perfect conformity to the will of God. All the strength of their affections was given to their heavenly Father. A beautiful soft light, the light of God, enshrouded the holy pair. This robe of light was a symbol of their spiritual garments of heavenly innocence. Had they remained true to God it would ever have continued to enshroud them. But when sin entered, they severed their connection with God, and the light that had encircled them departed. Naked and ashamed, they tried to supply the place of the heavenly garments by sewing together fig leaves for a covering... Nothing can man devise to supply the place of his lost robe of innocence. No fig-leaf garment, no worldly citizen dress, can be worn by those who sit down with Christ and angels at the marriage supper of the Lamb. {COL 311.2}
Only the covering which Christ Himself has provided can make us meet to appear in God’s presence. This covering, the robe of His own righteousness, Christ will put upon every repenting, believing soul. “I counsel thee,” He says, “to buy of Me ... white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear.” Revelation 3:18. {COL 311.3}

Since the fall of Adam, men are born without the White Robe that Adam was created with. At creation Adam did not have to repent for salvation as he did in his fallen condition. If children would have been born to them before the fall they would have been covered also.

Within the womb we begin to assimilate the characters of our fathers and mothers. My mother used to play Beatles records for me in her womb and I became a rock and roll musician.

Jesus had the character of His Father, we the worlds.

Are you just trying to be inflammatory because you do not understand what I've been saying so you make false charges - Jesus dies to save dogs. Really.

And don't stop with Enoch, remember Moses and Elijah. Can you clarify for me, so you believe or not believe that Jesus had to die to save Enoch, Moses and Elijah? Yes - Jesus had to die? Or No, Jesus did not need to die to save them? What is your answer?

So if you do not know, why do you condemn it?

APL, I think Asygo was not saying he does not know this issue but was trying to show you the problem you have through his example.

APL,

We agree that all sins are addictions. We disagree in the source of these addictions. You say that addictions, being sin, are encoded in the DNA. I say that such a concept is patently false. If it were true, then our DNA is changing daily. If our DNA were changing so much, fluctuating in and out of sin, then so much for trying to identify anyone by his or her DNA. So much for DNA paternity tests, etc., for none of them could be considered reliable.

I have never drunk alcohol in my life. I am not addicted to it. You say it is because it is not in my DNA. Now, suppose tomorrow I drink a glass and become an instant addict. You say my DNA just changed, right? Sounds like an easy way to avoid criminal conviction per DNA test--change your habits overnight.

How often does your DNA change, APL?

APL, the core of your flawed belief about the DNA has perhaps affected your theology in a dangerous way. You seem focused unbalancedly on salvation through Christ alone, without any participation in that salvation on the human side. Such is not in accordance with inspiration. I'm not sure that you would word it as I have, but I do have genuine concern for your understanding, for it may mean a loss of salvation for many people. Many seem to have the idea that there is nothing they can do, that it is all up to Christ. They hold themselves powerless, and therefore lean on a "saved by grace" belief. Certainly we are saved by grace. But not without due diligence on our part.

As has been said by some, we are not saved by works, but we are not saved without them either. Here are some balancing statements from Mrs. White regarding this cooperation between God and man.


As you quoted from the Steps to Christ, another important statement found there is this one (italics original):


We need to understand the "true force of the will." We have a choice. Sin is not an uncontrollable part of our DNA of which we have no choosing. It is a choice. We must exercise our will and wrestle unto blood in overcoming it. It is man's part to resist temptation, then God's part to cause the devil to flee. We must first choose to surrender our will to God before He can help us.

No one is saved by "Christ alone." Everyone is saved by "Christ alone." Those opposites are both true, depending upon the context. Christ alone has merited our salvation, and paid the penalty for our sins. In that sense, everyone who is saved must be saved by Him. "There is no other name under heaven whereby men must be saved." But in another sense, Christ alone can save no one. Even Jesus is powerless to save the sinner who will not choose Him. God's law of love has given us an unrevocable right of choice which places us in the position of final arbiters of our own destinies. We can either choose Christ, and accept His salvation, dying daily to selfishness and to sin; or we can choose the pleasures of sin for a season, and finally be destroyed for it.

If the DNA were the arbiters instead of our own choices, we would truly be predestined to destruction--for we have no power to choose our DNA. How thankful I am that this is not so! It is rather difficult trying to choose one's own biological parents, don't you think? How else could one affect his or her own DNA?

Maybe all my years in Biology class were in vain, but I was taught that evolution of the DNA only occurs during the sexual process of meiosis and not during ordinary cellular mitosis. There is no way of changing one's DNA for the better, but there are a few ways of increasing the odds of changing it for the worse. Exposing oneself to radiation is one of those. Let's suppose that radiation can cause cancer. Is radiation now "sin?" Yet that is just the sort of reasoning you use to support your view of sin being present throughout the natural world.

For example, you said this: "Our brains have receptors for these substances. Where do these receptors come from? Are they not encoded in our genome? Are not all the receptors, and all the control of all cellular functions, the chemical pathways, controlled by the genome?"

Now, by that same logic, one might conclude that his or her sinful appetites were also encoded into the DNA, since the DNA provided that he or she should have those taste buds to begin with, or those eyes to see with, or the organs to sense with? But, if the DNA provides our features that give us the opportunity to enjoy sin, is it God's fault for making us this way? God made our DNA. Did God make "sin?"

It is true that our brains have chemical pathways in them, such as receptor sites for dopamine, acetylcholine, etc. There are chemicals which cross the synaptic clefts of the axons and dendrites, and the neurons can create new synapses with increased activity of a certain brain pathway (thought). Each repetition of a thing can strengthen those pathways, and each neglect of it can weaken them. But are these "pathways" inherited in the DNA? Absolutely not. They are developed only by use. This is perfectly understandable and logical. Any biologist who tried to submit that these habits were found in the DNA would be laughed out of the room. Everyone knows that while a weakness may be inherited in the DNA, a habit cannot be. The DNA may be able to give one a "propensity," but it cannot give one a "sin."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

here you bring up a false statement. Shall I quote the scripture for you again? Romans 5:12 "Why, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed on all men, for that all have sinned:" To whom did Adam pass his genes to? "All men". Not dogs.

Who had dominion of this planet in the beginning? Adam. Who had dominion after Adam's fall?

• Continually they were reminded also of their lost dominion. Among the lower creatures Adam had stood as king, and so long as he remained loyal to God, all nature acknowledged his rule; but when he transgressed, this dominion was forfeited. The spirit of rebellion, to which he himself had given entrance, extended throughout the animal creation. Thus not only the life of man, but the nature of the beasts, the trees of the forest, the grass of the field, the very air he breathed, all told the sad lesson of the knowledge of evil. {Ed 26.4}

Does sin cause disease in humans and animals? Yes or No. If no, please explain how come animals have sickness and disease. If yes, please explain how a "spiritual matter" causes sickness and disease in all life.

So, a lion that devours a man is not evil?

Bad logic, I found it- accusing me of saying Adams genes passed to dogs.