Did they need the cross to be saved?

Good. We agree that Enoch needed Christ's death.

But that was not quite my question. Did Enoch need Christ's death in order to be regenerated? IOW, if Jesus lived His perfect life, then while hanging on the cross, just before dying, He decided to just go back to heaven, could Enoch have been regenerated?

"Enoch, Moses and Elijah needed Christ's death and life." How did it help them regenerate?

We are guilty and condemned, not because our nature is fallen, but because our nature is depraved. That depraved nature cannot be controlled by human power. Only in Christ can we hope to control it.

But when a person is in Christ, does that mean that his nature is no longer depraved? It is very likely to still be depraved. Does that mean that his depraved nature is no longer condemned? God still condemns it. Does that mean a person in Christ is condemned by God? No, it does not. How? Because when a person is in Christ, God looks at Christ's holiness, not the person's depravity.

So is that person guilty for being depraved? Yes. But in Christ, he is covered by Christ's holiness.

What does the mind have to do with it? What if we choose to not be depraved? What if we decide very strongly that we are no longer depraved? What if we choose to think we are no longer depraved? Does that cause the depravity to go away?

Do we incur guilt and condemnation because our nature is fallen and depraved even while we are abiding in Jesus and controlling it?


Does the depravity go away when the Father chooses not to see it? Does our fallen nature cease being depraved when the Father chooses to ignore it?

This is the wonderful power of the WORD.

Have you seen Jesus die on the cross in person? No. but you know it existed.

The same "faith" in the life of Jesus saved those who believed God's word before He came from heaven.

Adam was saved by belief in sacrificing according to the guidelines told him through angels and imagining the future fulfillment. It was revealed through the word of God.

There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. Even the vilest sinner is not condemned if he is in Christ Jesus. I'll say again what I said last time: Because when a person is in Christ, God looks at Christ's holiness, not the person's depravity.

So, no, one abiding in Jesus is not condemned. But it is not because he is holy, but because Jesus is holy. The depravity still brings guilt and condemnation, but Jesus takes it all away.

It's still there, but it is rendered powerless by Christ's righteousness. We are not to worry about what God thinks of us, but what He thinks of Christ.

Just to be clear - so, because we have a fallen, depraved nature we are guilty and condemned, even if we do not cherish it or act it out; if we are abiding in Jesus the Father ignores our guilt and condemnation.

What effect does our ignored depravity, guilt, and condemnation have on the fruits of the Spirit we experience while abiding in Jesus? Does it stain them with sin and selfishness? Or, do they flow from us pure and holy and undefiled? Is "righteousness and true holiness" real or forensic, imparted or imputed?

What do you mean by "regenerated". You and MM are the ones that have used the term, applying it to me. But looking back through this thread, I do not that I used it.

What I have been talking about is salvation. Most here is appears that salvation is a legal issue. I don't. I see salvation as a real issue, sin as a real problem.