Again, I am in total agreement that the unshielded glory of God kills sinners, even saved sinners. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God", and neither can it survive in presence of God's glory. We must first put on incorruptible flesh and blood. It takes holy flesh to stand before our holy God.

I cannot remember where else I affirmed this idea. As a result of studying this topic with Tom I believe the glory of God is a consuming fire, not only in the symbolic sense, but also in the literal sense. The only problem with this insight is there is no precedence to confirm it. That is, God has never consumed anyone before using His glory.

Having said that, let me hasten to add, lest I be misunderstood, I also believe God will employ literal fire to punish and destroy unsaved sinners in the lake of fire. I also believe God was either directly or indirectly involved in destroying the antediluvians and the sodomites, and many more. I believe He is in absolute control of the affairs of men and angels, and that He decides how and when they will die.

MM: I cannot remember where else I affirmed this idea. As a result of studying this topic with Tom I believe the glory of God is a consuming fire, not only in the symbolic sense, but also in the literal sense. The only problem with this insight is there is no precedence to confirm it. That is, God has never consumed anyone before using His glory.

Tom: On what basis do you affirm this? (that the glory of God has never killed anybody) What would such a death look like? How do you know you would recognize it? Even if there weren't a precedent, why would that be a problem?

MM: Having said that, let me hasten to add, lest I be misunderstood, I also believe God will employ literal fire to punish and destroy unsaved sinners in the lake of fire.

Tom: If the glory of God slays the wicked, then they're dead, correct? How can they also be punished and destroyed after they are dead?

MM: I also believe God was either directly or indirectly involved in destroying the antediluvians and the sodomites, and many more.

Tom: Noone disputes this.

MM: I believe He is in absolute control of the affairs of men and angels, and that He decides how and when they will die.

Tom: This isn't right, however. It is men who decide their own fate, not God.

quote:

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"Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Gal. 6:7. God destroys no man. Every man who is destroyed will destroy himself. When a man stifles the admonitions of conscience, he sows the seeds of unbelief and these produce a sure harvest.... {OHC 26.4}

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If God decided the fate of men, then all men would be saved, because God is not willing that any should perish but would have all repent and come to the knowledge of the truth. Men are lost precisely for the reason that they go against God's will, and because He does *NOT* decide the fate of men.

Are you absolutely sure we reap what we sow? Or, does the plan of salvation alter the course of things?

It applies.

quote:

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8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.(Gal. 6:8)

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Yes, of course, we reap what we sow. But not always the moment we sow it. In most cases, the wages of sin is delayed. Why? If we were allowed to experience the full, unaltered consequences of sin, the instant we sin, none of us would survive long enough to suffer sickness and sorrow and a lingering death. In fact, the human race would have ended with Adam and Eve the instant they ate the forbidden fruit. The plan of salvation totally alters the dynamics between sin and death. We do not reap what we sow the instant we sow it. Instead, we experience altered consequences, tailor-made by God for the good of everyone involved. Any consequences other than immediate death are unnatural, and are regulated by God Himself.

Interesting discussion......

Sin is the desire of a "created being" to exist independently of its "Creator".

Fact of Life #1: No "created being" can exist independently of its "Creator". All created life forms are "eternally" dependent upon the "Creator/God" for their life-force/Breath of Life.

The "Natural Consequence" of a "created being" becoming "independent" of its "Creator" is instantaneous death or a "state of non-existence". (See Fact of Life #1)

Because of the "Grace of God" all "created beings" who sought to become "independent from God" were spared the "Natural Consequence" of their choice.

All except One......

When Adam and Eve chose to believe Satan's temptation that it was possible to be "like God" or IOW to become an "independent being" God spared them from suffering the Eternal Death that comes as a result of their choice.

But......

He allowed them to experience a form of Death that comes as a result of their being prohibited from eating of the Tree of Life. Their bodies were denied the essential nutrients that would allow them to continue to live forever. Through time their bodies would deteriorate to the point that it was no longer capable of sustaining life.

Jesus experienced the "Natural Consequences" of sin in that He died as a direct result of a "separation from God" whereby the "Breath of Life" was withdrawn from Him.

(Keep in mind that the soldiers/spectators were surprised to find that Jesus had died so quickly. They even pierced His side in order to confirm His death. Normally an individual could remain alive on a cross for many hours/days before finally succumbing to death.)

This is the same death that will be experience by the Wicked at the "End of Time".

The death that we experience today comes as a result of our bodies inability to sustain life as a result of injury or illness.

The death that will be experienced by the Wicked at the End of Time comes as a result of God withdrawing the "Breath of Life" from a "created being" that would not die otherwise because their body is still capable of sustaining life.

Bob, nice summary. But it implies that you disagree with idea that God will employ literal fire and brimstone to punish and destroy unsaved sinners, men and angels alike, in the lake of fire.