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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147788
12/01/12 10:20 PM
12/01/12 10:20 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
And the reason we are saved is not because we are simply legally forgiven, it is because we are transformed.

Both aspects are involved. You can't exclude the legal aspect from salvation, or pretend it doesn't exist. It does exist.

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: dedication] #147789
12/01/12 10:38 PM
12/01/12 10:38 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Exactly!
Any "model" that tries to separate the two is a distortion.

Indeed.

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Rosangela] #147792
12/02/12 12:53 AM
12/02/12 12:53 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
And the reason we are saved is not because we are simply legally forgiven, it is because we are transformed.

Both aspects are involved. You can't exclude the legal aspect from salvation, or pretend it doesn't exist. It does exist.
Sin is not a legal problem. It is a real problem. When you go to a physician, do you want to be legally pardoned, or do you want to be healed? You want the sin to be removed. This is not done legally. Or sure, the one removing it can have a legal right to do it, but the there is nothing legal about the process of removal.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147793
12/02/12 01:00 AM
12/02/12 01:00 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
"The very essence of the gospel is restoration, and the Saviour would have us bid the sick, the hopeless, and the afflicted take hold upon His strength. {DA 824.5}" That's pretty clear.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147796
12/02/12 03:24 AM
12/02/12 03:24 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,707
Canada
Sin is also a legal problem dealing with law.
It is God's law that was under attack when lucifer rebelled.

While restoration is very much a part of salvation, without the legal aspect of Christ's atoning sacrifice, our restoration could never erase even one sin.

Remember there are books in heaven.
The record of our sins are inscribed there.
It is with the blood of Christ that pardon is written beside confessed sins. And it is with His blood that those sins are blotted out of the books of heaven during the investigative judgment.

Of course there is a corresponding work in the lives of the sinner as well.

The two aspects cannot be separated.

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: dedication] #147797
12/02/12 04:21 AM
12/02/12 04:21 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: dedication
Sin is also a legal problem dealing with law.
It is God's law that was under attack when lucifer rebelled.

While restoration is very much a part of salvation, without the legal aspect of Christ's atoning sacrifice, our restoration could never erase even one sin.

Remember there are books in heaven.
The record of our sins are inscribed there.
It is with the blood of Christ that pardon is written beside confessed sins. And it is with His blood that those sins are blotted out of the books of heaven during the investigative judgment.

Of course there is a corresponding work in the lives of the sinner as well.

The two aspects cannot be separated.
God's law is not an enacted law. God's law is a design template of everything. Gravity is one of God's law. There is nothing legal about gravity. The law of Gravity is not proscriptive or prescriptive. It is descriptive. I see all aspects of God's law as descriptive.

Yes, there is God's law. Yes, there is an investigative judgment. If you have ever been to a medical grand rounds, this is very much like the investigative judgment. Yes, the case of the patient is reviewed. But even more importantly, those taking care of the patient are on review.

Book in heaven - - and just exactly what is blotted out? The acts of sin? Will Uriah not know who Solomon is? Of course Uriah will know who Solomon is and what happened with David and his wife. But these acts of sin are only the symptoms. They are not the real problem. The symptoms are not the disease. The real problem is the disease of sin. That will be eliminated, blotted out, wiped out. The righteous are "born again".

I now have a link to an audio recording which begins to explain my current view. If anyone wants to hear it, please send me a personal message.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147799
12/02/12 02:39 PM
12/02/12 02:39 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Sin is not a legal problem. It is a real problem. When you go to a physician, do you want to be legally pardoned, or do you want to be healed? You want the sin to be removed. This is not done legally. Or sure, the one removing it can have a legal right to do it, but the there is nothing legal about the process of removal.

Of course sin is a legal problem. You are referring to sin's effects, which of course aren't legal, but sin is, in itself, a legal problem, since sin is the transgression of the law. God is not just a physician. He is a Lawgiver, and a Judge, and a King. Besides, sin is not just a problem of the human race - sin is a universal problem. Unfallen beings don't need to be healed, but they are, like us, subjects of a kingdom governed by a moral law.

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Rosangela] #147800
12/02/12 02:53 PM
12/02/12 02:53 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
"The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. [legal aspect] More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character" [healing aspect] {DA 762.2}

"Christ died because there was no other hope for the transgressor. He might try to keep God's law in the future; but the debt which he had incurred in the past remained, and the law must condemn him to death. Christ came to pay that debt for the sinner which it was impossible for him to pay for himself. Thus, through the atoning sacrifice of Christ, sinful man was granted another trial." {FW 30.1} [legal aspect]

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Rosangela] #147801
12/02/12 03:11 PM
12/02/12 03:11 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
The Law of Gravity is not self acting. It can do nothing in and of itself. Jesus did not set it in motion and now it acts of its own accord. Nothing in nature is self-acting. None of the laws of nature act on their own. Each and every law of nature is dependent on Jesus to act each and every second of its existence. Water would not flow downhill, plants would not grow, flowers would not bloom, wind would not blow, the sun would not shine without Jesus causing them to do so.

The idea that Jesus works to prevent our sins from triggering the laws of nature and causing disease and destruction assumes the laws of nature are self-acting. The idea that the antediluvians sinned in a way that caused the forces of nature to release a worldwide deluge assumes the forces of nature are self-acting, as if they are capable of acting on their own, as if all Jesus did was stop working to hold them in check. Not so.

The idea that the sins of the wicked will cause fire to rain down on them at the end of time assumes the forces of nature are self-acting, as if Jesus need only step aside and allow fire to do its thing. Fire cannot do a single thing without Jesus causing it to happen. The fact fire will rain down and consume the ungodly in duration according to their sinfulness is proof Jesus is acting to thus employ the forces of nature to punish them.

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Mountain Man] #147802
12/02/12 03:25 PM
12/02/12 03:25 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
In the plan of redemption there must be the shedding of blood, for death must come in consequence of man's sin. {Con 21.3}

Mere forgiveness of sin is not the sole result of the death of Jesus. He made the infinite sacrifice not only that sin might be removed, but that human nature might be restored, rebeautified, reconstructed from its ruins, and made fit for the presence of God. {3SM 154.1}

Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon. {AG 139.2}

Were there no justice, no penalty, there would be no stability to the government of God. It is the mingling of judgment and mercy that makes salvation full and complete. It is the blending of the two that leads us, as we view the world's Redeemer and the law of Jehovah, to exclaim, "Thy gentleness hath made me great" (2 Samuel 22:36). {AG 70}

Christ on the cross not only draws men to repentance toward God for the transgression of His law--for whom God pardons He first makes penitent--but Christ has satisfied Justice; He has proffered Himself as an atonement. {AG 153.2}

Through the cross, man was drawn to God, and God to man. Justice moved from its high and awful position, and the heavenly hosts, the armies of holiness, drew near to the cross, bowing with reverence; for at the cross justice was satisfied. Through the cross the sinner was drawn from the stronghold of sin, from the confederacy of evil, and at every approach to the cross his heart relents and in penitence he cries, "It was my sins that crucified the Son of God." At the cross he leaves his sins, and through the grace of Christ his character is transformed. {AG 74.5}

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