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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution.
[Re: Rosangela]
#147851
12/03/12 03:21 PM
12/03/12 03:21 PM
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So MM - would you ascribe all the things we now see happening as punishment sent by God? Romans 1 describes God wrath. And what is it? It is God leaving man to himself. And when that happens, all hell breaks loose. Consider the case of the fiery serpents. You can say, God used them to punish. But how did that happen? Excellent point. Yes, Jesus has punished sinners in the past by withdrawing His protection and allowing terrible things to happen. He accomplishes His purpose in one of several ways: 1. He acts personally to cause disease, death, and destruction. 2. He commands holy angels to cause disease, death, and destruction. 3. He commands His chosen people to cause disease, death, and destruction. 4. He permits evil angels to cause disease, death, and destruction. 5. He permits earthly men to cause disease, death, and destruction. Jesus is in control. He either causes, commands, or permits His agents to cause disease, death, and destruction according to His plan and purpose. The details are not left to chance or choice. Jesus determines the punishment and then works to ensure no one or nothing exceeds His limits. Nature is not self-acting. Snakes do not live and move and breathe and act of their own accord. The fact a viper bites one guy and not the guy next to him is because Jesus works actively to ensure it - both the biting and the not biting. That is, Jesus works to ensure a viper bites the right people and not the wrong people.
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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#147852
12/03/12 03:47 PM
12/03/12 03:47 PM
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APL, the passages I posted above prove the fire Jesus will use to punish sinners in duration according to their sinfulness (after the millennium) is a combination of fire rained down from heaven and fire raised up from beneath the earth. The result will be the lake of fire. Prior to the fire they are exposed to the radiant glory of God's glorious light and character. Yes, God glows. And, yes, exposure to His light causes sinners to suffer and die. Of course I can't say for certain but I suspect it is similar to exposure to harmful light waves here on earth. Ellen wrote: Every eye in that vast multitude is turned to behold the glory of the Son of God. {GC 662.2}
Now Christ again appears to the view of His enemies. Far above the city, upon a foundation of burnished gold, is a throne, high and lifted up. Upon this throne sits the Son of God, and around Him are the subjects of His kingdom. The power and majesty of Christ no language can describe, no pen portray. The glory of the Eternal Father is enshrouding His Son. The brightness of His presence fills the City of God, and flows out beyond the gates, flooding the whole earth with its radiance. {GC 665.1}
In the presence of the assembled inhabitants of earth and heaven the final coronation of the Son of God takes place. {GC 666.1}
As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. {GC 666.2}
Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2} As you can read, exposure to the radiant glory of God's light and character does not result in consuming fire. Instead, they are filled rage and turn upon evil men and angels to do them harm. At this point, Jesus will rain down and raise up fire to punish sinners in duration according to their sinfulness.
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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution.
[Re: Rosangela]
#147855
12/03/12 04:31 PM
12/03/12 04:31 PM
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APL, HOw is it that the concept of Christ as our Substitute fits into your view? A legal pardon will not save a sinner. Sinners must be transformed, a total transformation (SC chap. 5). We MUST be BORN AGAIN, and this is literal, and physical, and not legal. If justification was just the new birth, there would be no need for Christ to obey the law on our behalf and impute His righteous character to us. Christ - our substitute and surety: - In the word of God the mind finds subjects for the deepest thought, the loftiest aspirations. Here we may hold communion with patriarchs and prophets, and listen to the voice of the Eternal as he speaks with men. Here we behold the Majesty of Heaven, as he humbled himself to become our substitute and surety, to cope singlehanded with the powers of darkness, and to gain the victory in our behalf. A reverent contemplation of such themes as these cannot fail to soften, purify, and ennoble the heart, and at the same time to inspire the mind with new strength and vigor. {RH, July 11, 1882 par. 15}
Our substitute and surety, came and won the victory over sin in our behalf, and will impart that victory to us if we cooperate with Him. Do you read a legal battle here, or a real battle? The idea carries over to those big words, justification and sanctification. As you see in this quote, and there are many, Christ did take our place and fought the battle and won over sin. If this was a legal issue, then all people should be justified. But not all are.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution.
[Re: APL]
#147856
12/03/12 05:01 PM
12/03/12 05:01 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Our substitute and surety, came and won the victory over sin in our behalf, and will impart that victory to us if we cooperate with Him. Wait a minute. Christ not only imparts His victory to us. He bore our sins in His own body on the tree. Our iniquity was laid upon Him. Why did He do this and how does this fit into your view?
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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#147859
12/03/12 05:44 PM
12/03/12 05:44 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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So MM - would you ascribe all the things we now see happening as punishment sent by God? Romans 1 describes God wrath. And what is it? It is God leaving man to himself. And when that happens, all hell breaks loose. Consider the case of the fiery serpents. You can say, God used them to punish. But how did that happen? Excellent point. Yes, Jesus has punished sinners in the past by withdrawing His protection and allowing terrible things to happen. He accomplishes His purpose in one of several ways: 1. He acts personally to cause disease, death, and destruction. 2. He commands holy angels to cause disease, death, and destruction. 3. He commands His chosen people to cause disease, death, and destruction. 4. He permits evil angels to cause disease, death, and destruction. 5. He permits earthly men to cause disease, death, and destruction. Jesus is in control. He either causes, commands, or permits His agents to cause disease, death, and destruction according to His plan and purpose. The details are not left to chance or choice. Jesus determines the punishment and then works to ensure no one or nothing exceeds His limits. Nature is not self-acting. Snakes do not live and move and breathe and act of their own accord. The fact a viper bites one guy and not the guy next to him is because Jesus works actively to ensure it - both the biting and the not biting. That is, Jesus works to ensure a viper bites the right people and not the wrong people. MM - I could not disagree with you more. You are attributing to God the attributes of Satan. I would suggest you read the article titled, "God Made Manifest in Christ", in Signs of the Times, January 20, 1890. Read the whole article. - Christ came to save fallen man, and Satan with fiercest wrath met him on the field of conflict; for the enemy knew that when divine strength was added to human weakness, man was armed with power and intelligence, and could break away from the captivity in which he had bound him. Satan sought to intercept every ray of light from the throne of God. He sought to cast his shadow across the earth, that men might lose the true views of God's character, and that the knowledge of God might become extinct in the earth. He had caused truth of vital importance to be so mingled with error that it had lost its significance. The law of Jehovah was burdened with needless exactions and traditions, and God was represented as severe, exacting, revengeful, and arbitrary. He was pictured as one who could take pleasure in the sufferings of his creatures. The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 6}
Does God cause sickness and death? - Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. {MH 113.1}
The words spoken to Israel are true today of those who recover health of body or health of soul. "I am the Lord that healeth thee." Exodus 15:26. {MH 113.2}
The desire of God for every human being is expressed in the words, "Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth." 3 John 2. {MH 113.3}
He it is who "forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases; who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with loving-kindness and tender mercies." Psalm 103:3, 4. {MH 113.4}
When Christ healed disease, He warned many of the afflicted ones, "Sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." John 5:14. Thus He taught that they had brought disease upon themselves by transgressing the laws of God, and that health could be preserved only by obedience. {MH 113.5}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution.
[Re: Rosangela]
#147861
12/03/12 06:52 PM
12/03/12 06:52 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Our substitute and surety, came and won the victory over sin in our behalf, and will impart that victory to us if we cooperate with Him. Wait a minute. Christ not only imparts His victory to us. He bore our sins in His own body on the tree. Our iniquity was laid upon Him. Why did He do this and how does this fit into your view? Yes, our iniquity was laid on Him. How was that done? Just a legal transfer? Or was it literal? I'm saying this was literal. That is what I have been talking about this whole thread. If you don't have a physical model of sin, then yes you need a legal model. I offered to supply an audio recording (not of me) which gives a brief overview of what I have been talking about. Just send me a personal message and I'll give you the link I have been given for the talk. How could Christ literally carry our "sickness" literally is explained. ( Matthew 8:17; Isaiah 53:3-4)
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution.
[Re: APL]
#147864
12/03/12 08:36 PM
12/03/12 08:36 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
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Brazil
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Yes, our iniquity was laid on Him. How was that done? Just a legal transfer? Or was it literal? I'm saying this was literal. EGW makes clear this was done by imputation, but the main point is that He did this as our substitute - He took our place and suffered our punishment. The penalty He suffered is considered as if it was mine (in the same way my sin was considered as if it was His). There is an exchange - and this is a legal transaction. In Christ we are as if we had suffered the penalty we have incurred. In Christ I am as if I had obeyed, and rendered perfect obedience to the law, which we can not perfectly obey without Christ imparts to us His merits and His righteousness. {PUR, September 4, 1913 par. 3}
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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution.
[Re: Rosangela]
#147868
12/03/12 10:12 PM
12/03/12 10:12 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Yes, our iniquity was laid on Him. How was that done? Just a legal transfer? Or was it literal? I'm saying this was literal. EGW makes clear this was done by imputation, but the main point is that He did this as our substitute - He took our place and suffered our punishment. The penalty He suffered is considered as if it was mine (in the same way my sin was considered as if it was His). There is an exchange - and this is a legal transaction. In Christ we are as if we had suffered the penalty we have incurred. In Christ I am as if I had obeyed, and rendered perfect obedience to the law, which we can not perfectly obey without Christ imparts to us His merits and His righteousness. {PUR, September 4, 1913 par. 3} Yes, if you do not have a physical model of what went wrong in the first place, it will all be a legal transaction. I would suggest to you also to read the Signs of the Times, January 20, 1890 article. - Man was God's workmanship, made after his image, endowed with talents, and fitted for a high destiny. But Satan has worked to obliterate the divine image, and to impress his own image instead of the image of God in man's nature. Jesus condescended to humble himself, to take human nature, and by uniting divinity with humanity, he proposed to elevate man in the scale of moral value. All heaven was poured out in the gift of God's dear Son. Through faith in him the sinner could be justified, and God could yet be just in justifying the sinner; for Christ had become a propitiation for the sins of the repentant soul. The only plan that could be devised to save the human race was that which called for the incarnation, humiliation, and crucifixion of the Son of God, the Majesty of heaven. After the plan of salvation was devised, Satan could have no ground upon which to found his suggestion that God, because so great, could care nothing for so insignificant a creature as man. The redemption of man is a wonderful theme, and the love manifested to the fallen race through the plan of salvation, can be estimated only by the cross of Calvary. The depth of this love even angels cannot sound. That God could consent to become flesh, and dwell among fallen beings, to lift them up from their helplessness and despair, is an unfathomed mystery. He whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, whose dominion endureth throughout all generations, made himself to be sin for us that he might lift up all that are bowed down, and give life to those who are ready to perish. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 8}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 9}
- Man is God's workmanship, made in His image. - this is all aspects of man. And what defines how a human being is put together and run? DNA, the best information transfer system ever made.
- Satan worked to obliterate that image. - What was the highest sin antedeluvians committed that called for the destruction of the race? EGW:"But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction of the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation of man and beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere. {3SG 64.1}" Amalgamation - genetic engineering.
- humbled Himself to take human nature - all aspect of that nature and a fallen nature. One that had already been genetically modified
- proposed to elevate man in the scale of moral value. Was this a legal action? No.
- We are justified by faith. Justified, set right. No legally, but actually.
- the incarnation was required for God to work this out, Hebrews 2:17-18 Why in all things it behooved him to be made like to his brothers, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted.
- Satan had no ground for his suggestion that God did not care for insignificant man. - Satan was a liar. Maybe this is an opening to say God had the legal right. But actually, it is so much more than that. God so love the world!!! John 3:16.
- God became flesh. Why? To life up helpless man. It is an unfathomable mystery.
- God made Himself to be sin for us. This is literal. He took on our human condition, in its fallen form, and cured it. Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Are you sins purged? No. So what is this saying here? Christ had the same sin in Him as we have, and was able to purge it out, remove it. EGW: Jesus Christ "counted it not a thing to be grasped to be equal with God." Because divinity alone could be efficacious in the restoration of man from the poisonous bruise of the serpent, God himself, in his only begotten Son, assumed human nature, and in the weakness of human nature sustained the character of God, vindicated his holy law in every particular, and accepted the sentence of wrath and death for the sons of men. {YI, February 11, 1897 par. 2} And on His resurrection, John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father." Why? To prove that He could be in the presence of God, and not be destroyed, that He had indeed purged our sin.
- Of that we might open our minds to know God as He is revealed in his Son!
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution.
[Re: APL]
#147872
12/04/12 03:30 AM
12/04/12 03:30 AM
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Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022
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Canada
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As one writer said:
"If we lose our faith in the substituationary atonement we lose the Gospel. If you deny the substitutationary atonement you have essentially lost the Christian faith…As my substitute He endured what I deserve in order to give me what I don't deserve."
Christ didn't just "have to experience" the cross to make Him an understanding priest. That is simply evading the whole meaning and message in the quotes I shared.
He took our sins upon Himself, the full guilt load, and suffered THE PUNISHMENT due sinners, making salvation possible for every one.
The price has been paid. But now people must respond with contrite hearts else they are insisting on carrying their own sins which ends with them reaping the punishment because they reject the gift.
This is NOT an either or situation.
Substitution is absolutely essential -- without it all the "moral influence" and "good works" avails absolutely nothing.
It's because of what Christ has done that we respond, accepting His death as death to our sin and rising to new life in Christ. Born again to live for him.
Christ's death was ‘penal' in that he bore a penalty when He died. His death was also a ‘substitution' in that He was a substitute for us when He died.
Christ died instead of us (substitution) as a sacrifice that took away the guilt of our sins (expiation). Thus as Romans 6 declares we can reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive in Christ. Not that we won't have to struggle against sin, there will always be struggle this side of heaven, but we can KNOW WE HAVE A CLEAN SLATE before God when we confess our sins and by His grace follow Him in humble obedience, not to EARN salvation but because He is our Lord and Savior. And yes, THEN healing does take place.
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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution.
[Re: dedication]
#147873
12/04/12 03:36 AM
12/04/12 03:36 AM
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Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022
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"The world's Redeemer was treated as we deserve to be treated, in order that we might be treated as he deserved to be treated. (Our substitute) He came to our world and took our sins upon his own divine soul, that we might receive his imputed righteousness. He was condemned for our sins, (our penalty) in which he had no share, that we might be justified by his righteousness, in which we had no share... Redeemed by the ransom money paid for your souls, (legal transaction) you will go forth and show how much you love Jesus by obedience to his commandments. You are to bring forth fruit by doing his commandments, because you are branches of the living Vine. (Healing) It is his prayer that his joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. {RH, March 21, 1893 par. 6}
Last edited by dedication; 12/04/12 03:38 AM.
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