Bob, how do you explain the following insights. I'm not asking if you agree, instead, I'm asking what you think they say. Do they agree with your view of judgment and punishment and destruction?

EW 294, 295
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}

GC 544, 545
They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. Since it is impossible for God, consistently with His justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited and of which he has proved himself unworthy. Says an inspired writer: "Yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." And another declares: "They shall be as though they had not been." Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. Covered with infamy, they sink into hopeless, eternal oblivion. {GC 544.2}

GC 661
In union with Christ they judge the wicked, comparing their acts with the statute book, the Bible, and deciding every case according to the deeds done in the body. Then the portion which the wicked must suffer is meted out, according to their works; and it is recorded against their names in the book of death. {GC 660.4}

GC 673
The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

If you compare your recent post with my previous post, you will find that there is NO agreement as to how the Wicked will be destroyed in the end.

Again, the God that I serve is a merciful God and takes "no delight in the destruction of the Wicked". He will make their final death a quick and painless one.

Think about this for a moment. Imagine that you are standing in the Holy City as it descends to the earth and you witness a loved one, say your spouse, or child, or parent as they writhe in pain and agony in the "lake of fire".

How do you think that you would feel about that?

I know that I would not enjoy it in the least.

God has the ability to bring about the death of the Wicked in a very quick and efficient manner. As I have stated previously, it will be an act of mercy on His part because the Wicked will be experiencing extreme anguish at that time due to their realization of what they have lost.

As you probably can see, I do not agree with the "insight" that EGW has given on this topic. It would appear that she is still clinging to the old mideval belief in Hell and the final punishment of the Wicked in proportion to their wickedness.

There is no Biblical evidence that supports the belief that God prolongs the final punishment of the Wicked or makes it as painful as is possible to bear.

Bob, I appreciate your candid honesty. Not everyone interprets Sister White's insights as you and I have. But, according to the view you have embaced, the saints will witness the suffering of lost loved ones, albeit, of a shorter duration than the view I have embraced. In either case, I think that's why it says in the Bible that God will wipe away every tear. Indeed, it will be a sorrowful ordeal to watch. But our tears will not flow from a heart at war with God's decision to punish each unsaved sinner according to their works.

Revelation
7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

I don't neccessarily see the destruction of the Wicked as a "punishment" per se.

In reality, God is only giving the Wicked what they desire. They desire independence from God and this is what God is giving them. Unfortunately, independance from God has a consequence.....Death.

The Wicked will receive their independence from God, but this will result in their Eternal Death.

Yes, it will be difficult to witness, but by then we will have had 1000 years to review all the records and resolve in our own minds that the Eternal Death of the Wicked is in reality allowing them to receive what they want and deserve.

MM, you seem to have the view that the wicked will be destroyed because God does something to them. This is not the view of inspiration, which is that they die because of their sin, *not* because of God. For example:

quote:

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This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

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Note the emphasis that it is *NOT* God's actions which lead to the death of the wicked, but their own.

Consider the following:

quote:

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The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

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Note that it is the SAME THING which causes life for the righteous which destroys the wicked. This makes it clear that it is not something arbitrary God is doing which results in their destruction, but something about themselves which causes that which is life to the righteous to be death to them. The problem is with the wicked, not with God. God is innocent of their death.

You are right, there is nothing arbitrary about the punishment and destruction of the unsaved. God gave them ample opportunity to be saved, and they chose the death penalty instead. The idea that God takes a passive, inactive role in their punishment and death ignores the EW and GC quotes posted above. Your favorite DA quote does not change the obvious meaning of the EW and GC quotes.

Your DA quote is simply saying that God isn't going to execute the death penalty without just cause. Everything you said about God being the source of life is true. But He is also, by default, the source of death. That is, when He withdraws the source of life, death is the result. Your DA quote is merely saying that God doesn't withdraw the source of life, which causes death, without just cause.

But the EW and GC quotes clearly say that God will also employ fire and brimstone to punish the unsaved according to their works. The intensity and duration of their fiery punishment is directly proportionate to their sinfulness. That is clearly what is taught in the EW and GC quotes. No amount of spiritualizing can change the obvious and literal meaning of the plain words employed to describe the fiery fate of the unsaved.

Yes, the glory of God is a consuming fire. Yes, God is the source of life. Yes, if we refuse to be saved we chose to separate ourselves from the source of life. But that's not the end of the story. The Bible and the SOP go on to describe how God will also use fire and brimstone to punish and then destroy the unsaved according to their sinfulness, that their life will end when the last sin has been punished.

In response to this "strange act" unfallen beings will proclaim, “Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments. . . Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works.” Rev 16:5 and 18:6. “Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" EW 294.

MM: You are right, there is nothing arbitrary about the punishment and destruction of the unsaved. God gave them ample opportunity to be saved, and they chose the death penalty instead. The idea that God takes a passive, inactive role in their punishment and death ignores the EW and GC quotes posted above. Your favorite DA quote does not change the obvious meaning of the EW and GC quotes.

Tom: In affirming I am "right" that there is nothing arbitrary about the punishment and destruction of the wicked, I assume you accept that argument from DA 764 which provides the argument as to why the destruction of the wicked is not arbitrary. It is because they cut themselves off from God, the only source of life, that they die. That's just what EGW writes.

I would say that my "favorite" DA quote does not change the EW or GC quotes, but it explains them. The visions which she received, she explained in plain language. That plain language should not be ignored or set asied.

MM: Your DA quote is simply saying that God isn't going to execute the death penalty without just cause. Everything you said about God being the source of life is true. But He is also, by default, the source of death.

Tom: This is a lie from the devil.

quote:

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Satan represents God's law of love as a law of selfishness. He declares that it is impossible for us to obey its precepts. The fall of our first parents, with all the woe that has resulted, he charges upon the Creator, leading men to look upon God as the author of sin, and suffering, and death. Jesus was to unveil this deception. (DA 24)

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God is not the source of death. That is a lie. It is Satan who is the author of death. Death results from disobedience, because the nature of sin is to bring about death. Many Scriptures bring this out, including texts written by Ezekiel, Paul, and James.

MM: That is, when He withdraws the source of life, death is the result. Your DA quote is merely saying that God doesn't withdraw the source of life, which causes death, without just cause.

Tom: That's not what it says at all. Here's the quote again. Take a look at it.

quote:

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This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

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Where does it say what you are asserting? Where is the theme of "just cause" discussed anywhere? That's not the issue at all. You can look at the whole page, or the whole chapter, and you will see that "just cause" is not discussed anywhere.

MM: But the EW and GC quotes clearly say that God will also employ fire and brimstone to punish the unsaved according to their works.

Tom: I've asked you this before, but I don't believe you've answered, so I'll try again. If the glory of God causes the death of the wicked, then are they not already dead? If they are dead, how can God kill them again? How can they be punished once they are dead? If they're dead, they're dead.


MM: The intensity and duration of their fiery punishment is directly proportionate to their sinfulness. That is clearly what is taught in the EW and GC quotes. No amount of spiritualizing can change the obvious and literal meaning of the plain words employed to describe the fiery fate of the unsaved.

Yes, the glory of God is a consuming fire. Yes, God is the source of life. Yes, if we refuse to be saved we chose to separate ourselves from the source of life. But that's not the end of the story.

Tom: Death pretty much *is* the end of the story. Once the glory of God destroys the wicked, that's it, end of story.

[the rest snipped, having been covered above]

Tom, Satan cannot give life. Only God can give life. And, you have repeatedly affirmed that death is the result of God withdrawing life. Satan cannot withdraw life. If Satan were to die right now, the rest of us would go on dying without him. We do not need Satan to die, or for God to withdraw life. Neither can we unplug ourselves from God. We do not possess the creative power to plug or unplug ourselves from the source of life. Only God possesses such power. If and when God chooses to unplug someone it will be because they have forfeited the right to live. It is not the result of an arbitrary or capricious decision. It is because they have not chosen Jesus, have not chosen to be saved.

The glory of God can be regulated to produce varying affects. Moses is a case in point. The unsaved standing before the great white throne is another case in point. If we combine the quotes we’ve been posting it is obvious, to me, that both forces (glory and brimstone) are at work in the punishment and destruction of the unsaved. The glory of God will be employed in such a way that the unsaved are destroyed from the least to the greatest of sinners. Each person is punished according to their sinfulness, and then they finally die.

Pardon me, MM, but I'm still not getting how your comments harmonize with the quote. Here's the quote again, for ease of reference:

quote:

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This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

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Here are your comments, with my comments intermixed.

MM: Tom, Satan cannot give life.

Tom: Correct, but he can cause death. He is the "author of sin and death." Death results from sin, and sin was the invention of Satan.

MM: Only God can give life. And, you have repeatedly affirmed that death is the result of God withdrawing life.

Tom: Where did I say this? I don't think I've said this once, let alone "repeatedly".

MM: Satan cannot withdraw life. If Satan were to die right now, the rest of us would go on dying without him. We do not need Satan to die, or for God to withdraw life. Neither can we unplug ourselves from God. We do not possess the creative power to plug or unplug ourselves from the source of life. Only God possesses such power.

Tom: I don't see how your statements follow from the above quote. They seem to be opposed to EGW's thought: "God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life." Note she says that the sinner "separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. The point she is making here (and not just in this sentence, but thought these several paragraphs) is that it is NOT God which is causing the death of the wicked. She says that several times.

MM: If and when God chooses to unplug someone it will be because they have forfeited the right to live. It is not the result of an arbitrary or capricious decision. It is because they have not chosen Jesus, have not chosen to be saved.

Tom: Again, this is not following EGW's thought in any way. At least not in any way I can see. The quote is above. You could refer to it in some way and link it to your thoughts; that might help me to follow your logic.

MM: The glory of God can be regulated to produce varying affects.

Tom: The glory of God is His character. You are referring to it as if it were some impersonal substance. It is God revealing Himself as He is. He limits that revelation now to the point that we are able to bear it. In the destruction of the wicked, the revelation of His character, His goodness, will result in their death.

MM: Moses is a case in point. The unsaved standing before the great white throne is another case in point. If we combine the quotes we’ve been posting it is obvious, to me, that both forces (glory and brimstone) are at work in the punishment and destruction of the unsaved. The glory of God will be employed in such a way that the unsaved are destroyed from the least to the greatest of sinners. Each person is punished according to their sinfulness, and then they finally die.

Tom: I'm not getting this. The glory quotes bring out the the light of the glory of God "slays" the wicked. That means they are dead. There's no more punishment or killing possible, because THEY ARE DEAD (pardon the shouting). If they're already dead from the glory, then the brimstone cannot further punish them or kill them, right?

Tom, if, as you say, we have the ability to unplug ourselves from the source of life, why is it necessary, then, for God to resurrect the unsaved? Suicide, dying of old age, or any other form of dying the first death, does not constitute unplugging ourselves from the source of life. Neither can Satan unplug us. Killing us or causing us to die the first death does not constitute Satan unplugging us from the source of life.

Only God can unplug us from the source of life in the lake of fire. Those who come up in the second resurrection cannot kill themselves, or plug themselves, in order to escape the unshielded glory of God, or the fire and brimstone that God will rain down upon them. If it were possible to unplug themselves, then surely at least some would do it, at least part way through, to avoid being punished according to their sinfulness. The fact they don’t is proof, to me, they can’t.

The glory of God does not destroy all sinners, men and angels, at exactly the same time. I’m sure you agree. Therefore, it is entirely possible that some will die right away, while others will die later on, with Satan being the last to die. Each person will punish and die according to their sinfulness, the duration and intensity being equal to their sinfulness. Since fire and brimstone will rain down upon the earth at the same time God allows His regulated glory to affect men and angels according to their sinfulness, it is not difficult to imagine unsaved sinners being affected by both God’s glory and the brimstone.