MM: Tom, if, as you say, we have the ability to unplug ourselves from the source of life, why is it necessary, then, for God to resurrect the unsaved?

Tom: You keep putting words in my mouth! I simply quoted from EGW, as far as I can tell. *She* wrote:

quote:

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God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God."

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I think all I did was quote this. I've asked you in the past to quote what I'm writing. This is what I do for you. I reproduce what you write word for word, so there can be no question as to my mispresenting a thought. You, in general, don't do a very job of representing my thought, so quoting would be prudent for you, I think.

Rosangela, OTOH, does do a very good job representing my thoughts, so her example would be a good one to follow. She either presents my own words or asks for clarification when she is restating a thought. I do the same thing. I present what I perceive to be your thoughts, and ask you if I have understood them correctly. Several times you have written something like "as you have repeatedly asserted" and I have responded "where did I say that even once, let alone repeatedly" and you don't respond, which makes me think that you were indeed mispeaking. Let's be careful to get one another's thoughts right! It's difficult enough to communicate, even when we *are* representing one another's thoughts correctly.

MM: Suicide, dying of old age, or any other form of dying the first death, does not constitute unplugging ourselves from the source of life. Neither can Satan unplug us. Killing us or causing us to die the first death does not constitute Satan unplugging us from the source of life.

Only God can unplug us from the source of life in the lake of fire. Those who come up in the second resurrection cannot kill themselves, or plug themselves, in order to escape the unshielded glory of God, or the fire and brimstone that God will rain down upon them. If it were possible to unplug themselves, then surely at least some would do it, at least part way through, to avoid being punished according to their sinfulness. The fact they don’t is proof, to me, they can’t.

Tom: I'm sorry, but I don't see how anything you're writing about fits in with the following quote:

quote:

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This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}

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Can you explain this for me? From the above quote, I see that:
1)The destruction of the wicked is not an arbitrary act of power on God's part.
2)Instead they die because they cut themselves off from God, who alone is the source of life.
3)The wicked reap that which they have sown.
4)Receiving the results of their own sin, the rejectors of God's mercy place themselves so out of harmony with God's character that His presence becomes to them a consuming fire.
5)His glory destroys the wicked.
6)Had God destroyed the wicked at the beginning, it would have appeared that God was killing them rather than that they were receiving the inevitable results of their sin. To avoid this misunderstanding, which would have resulted in doubts about God's goodness, God permitted sin to coninue on.

These statements I have written, 1) through 6), I see as being clearly written in the DA quote above. I'm just restating them. EGW's stated position here is in perfect harmony with what I believe. Her position is clearly stated and well reasoned. It makes logical sense, and presents God in a positive light, in a way which is harmony with the revelation of God in Jesus Christ.

MM: The glory of God does not destroy all sinners, men and angels, at exactly the same time. I’m sure you agree. Therefore, it is entirely possible that some will die right away, while others will die later on, with Satan being the last to die. Each person will punish and die according to their sinfulness, the duration and intensity being equal to their sinfulness. Since fire and brimstone will rain down upon the earth at the same time God allows His regulated glory to affect men and angels according to their sinfulness, it is not difficult to imagine unsaved sinners being affected by both God’s glory and the brimstone.

Tom: I'm sorry I'm not following you here. The Spirit of Prophesy writes that the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked. Since His glory "slays" them, they are dead. If they are dead, they can't be killed again or punished. They've already been punished because they are dead.

It sounds like you are saying that the glory of God doesn't really kill the wicked, it just kind of maims them, so that fire and brimstone can finish the job. The lake of fire would kill anybody in a moment, wouldn't it? So using a literal lake of fire as a means of punishment and death would not allow for proportional punishment, would it?

Tom, you seem to be saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, that Sister White plainly teaches the lake of fire is not literal fire and brimstone, like Sodom and Gomorrah, but rather it is a metaphor for the glory of God, and that the glory of God slays the unsaved instantly, at the exact same time.

The unsaved die because, after God resurrects them and restores life to them, they somehow separate themselves from the Source of life, and while living thus cut off from the Source of life, the glory of God becomes to them a source of punishment or instant death. And so they die, at exactly the same time, irrespective of their sinfulness.

MM: Tom, you seem to be saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, that Sister White plainly teaches the lake of fire is not literal fire and brimstone, like Sodom and Gomorrah, but rather it is a metaphor for the glory of God, and that the glory of God slays the unsaved instantly, at the exact same time.

The unsaved die because, after God resurrects them and restores life to them, they somehow separate themselves from the Source of life, and while living thus cut off from the Source of life, the glory of God becomes to them a source of punishment or instant death. And so they die, at exactly the same time, irrespective of their sinfulness.

Tom: Thank you for asking for clarification on my thoughts. Here is the statement which I think is the clearest on this subject:

quote:

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Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Mal. 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezek. 28:6-19; Ps. 37:10; Obadiah 16. {DA 763.4}

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}

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This statement says:
1)The destruction of the wicked is not an arbitrary act of power on God's part.
2)Instead they die because they cut themselves off from God, who alone is the source of life.
3)The wicked reap that which they have sown.
4)Receiving the results of their own sin, the rejectors of God's mercy place themselves so out of harmony with God's character that His presence becomes to them a consuming fire.
5)His glory destroys the wicked.
6)Had God destroyed the wicked at the beginning, it would have appeared that God was killing them rather than that they were receiving the inevitable results of their sin. To avoid this misunderstanding, which would have resulted in doubts about God's goodness, God permitted sin to coninue on.

Note that she quotes Malachi 4, which is replete with fire.

The quote brings out that the wicked are killed by the glory of God. The Scriptures bring out that the earth will be cleansed by fire. Rosangela has suggested that it is God's glory which causes this to happen. This seems entirely plausable to me. However, if the glory of God slays the wicked, and there is a literal fire which cleanses the earth, it seems obvious to me that the wicked must already have been punished and dead before this time. A literal fire would kill the wicked instantly.

What I believe is that the glory of God, which is a revelation of His character, brings pain, suffering and death to the wicked. God would wish that this was not so, but the wicked have formed characters which are so out of harmony with His character that this is what happens. From the perspective of the righteous, I believe they will just see God being how He always is; patient and kind, explaining why things are the way they are, answering the questions the wicked have. This process is very painful for the wicked.

I've used the analogy from the Chronicals or Narnia several times. It explains the process as well as I can. A group of children come across a bitter old man living as a hermit in the woods. They ask Aslan (a lion, representing Christ) why He doesn't say something to comfort the old man (because they have themselves received much comfort from Aslan -- since he is so kind to them, and has helped them, why couldn't he do the same for the old man?) Aslan replies that no matter what he says, all the old man hears is a lion roaring.

God is kind, patient and gracious with the wicked, just the way He always is. He can't be any other way that He is. He IS as Jesus Christ revealed Him to be. He is as described in 1 Cor. 13. This is just what He will be like in the judgment. However, God being God, results in the pain, suffering and death for those who have constructed characters out of harmony with His principles, the principles of love.

The statment that the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked is most helpful here. I've brought this out many times now, although I've yet to see it commented on. The point is that it's the same thing which gives life to one party that destroys the other. If this one point is grasped, it would go a long way, I believe, to unravleing the big picture.

One final point that I wish to make clear is that I do believe the punishment of the wicked will be proportional. They will suffer in accordance with the light that they have rejected. The greater the rejected light, the greater the suffering when the glory of God (His kindness, His goodness, His character) is revealed to them. This is not an arbitrary process on the part of God, but part and parcel to what the wicked have done to themselves. It is the wicked who are responsible for their own death, not God. The judgment will reveal that God is totally innocent of sin and death.

Thank you for the clarification.

Thank you for your gratefulness.

Thank You for your clarity and longanimity,Tom. It's a major paradim shift for anyone, and sadly, forums are the worst place to attempt to study this topic, I have discovered.

By the way...you have not given me your address for the free book I was offering MM, but he lateraled to you. Please e-mail me.

Although forums might not be the best place for affecting someone's opinion (as most of the people who participate have opinions set in stone), it is a good place to share thoughts and information. These discussions have helped me to clarify my thoughts immensely, and you have shared many things of which I was not aware.