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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution.
[Re: APL]
#147977
12/05/12 02:13 PM
12/05/12 02:13 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Revelation 15
15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
Chapter 16
16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and [upon] them which worshipped his image.
16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead [man]; and every living soul died in the sea.
16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments. Perhaps you should read the book, "Saving God's Reputation" by Sigve Tonstad, M.D., Ph.D. If you believe that the seven last plagues are God's punishment inflicted on the lost sinners, whose probation has closed with no hope of salvation. Jesus revealed to John in vision holy angels obeying the command of God to pour out seven last plagues. Some people interpret it to mean holy angels withdrawing their protection and permitting evil angels to do it.
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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#147978
12/05/12 02:14 PM
12/05/12 02:14 PM
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Bump for APL: Bump for APL: Also, you didn't reply to the post and passages where it is clearly taught the fire Jesus will rain down and raise up after the millennium is not the radiant light emanating from the person and presence of God. God's glorious glow will not cause the lake of fire in which sinners will suffer and die in duration according to their sinfulness. The quotes are too plain to misunderstand. If you are unwilling to address this post please say so. Just saying.
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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution.
[Re: APL]
#147980
12/05/12 03:38 PM
12/05/12 03:38 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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You seem to say that sin started with humans. It did not! Pinpointing the problem in the human genome is not explaining the ultimate origin of sin is it? No. Indeed. Genetics can't explain sin, either in Lucifer, in the angels who followed him, or in Adam and Eve. So how can sin be physically explained in these cases? Explaining sin and explaining the origin of sin are two different matters. The origin of sin involves only Lucifer. It doesn't involve the other angels who fell nor Adam and Eve.
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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#147981
12/05/12 03:45 PM
12/05/12 03:45 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
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Bump for APL: Bump for APL: Also, you didn't reply to the post and passages where it is clearly taught the fire Jesus will rain down and raise up after the millennium is not the radiant light emanating from the person and presence of God. God's glorious glow will not cause the lake of fire in which sinners will suffer and die in duration according to their sinfulness. The quotes are too plain to misunderstand. If you are unwilling to address this post please say so. Just saying. Did you read some of the quotes I gave above? Do you believe God is the same, yesterday, today, and tomorrow? How do you reconcile EGW quotes which say, "God destroys no man", and then you say, God executes sinners? You want to pour fire on your enemy? Here is how to do it! Romans 12:19-21 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place to wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, said the Lord. 20 Therefore if your enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing you shall heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. Proverbs 25:21-22 If your enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: 22 For you shall heap coals of fire on his head, and the LORD shall reward you. Deuteronomy 32:22-3022 My anger will flame up like fire and burn everything on earth. It will reach to the world below and consume the roots of the mountains. 23 " ' I will bring on them endless disasters and use all my arrows against them. 24 They will die from hunger and fever; they will die from terrible diseases. I will send wild animals to attack them, and poisonous snakes to bite them. 25 War will bring death in the streets; terrors will strike in the homes. Young men and young women will die; neither babies nor old people will be spared. 26 I would have destroyed them completely, so that no one would remember them. 27 But I could not let their enemies boast that they had defeated my people, when it was I myself who had crushed them.' 28 " Israel is a nation without sense; they have no wisdom at all. 29 They fail to see why they were defeated; they cannot understand what happened. 30 Why were a thousand defeated by one, and ten thousand by only two? The LORD, their God, had abandoned them; their mighty God had given them up.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution.
[Re: Rosangela]
#147982
12/05/12 03:48 PM
12/05/12 03:48 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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The origin of sin involves only Lucifer. It doesn't involve the other angels who fell nor Adam and Eve. I agree that sin originated with Satan. My he did it is a total mystery. What he did, not so much any more... Read The Great Controversy, chapter 29, the origin of evil.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution.
[Re: APL]
#147983
12/05/12 04:35 PM
12/05/12 04:35 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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I've already read it. As I said, sin in the other angels who fell and in Adam and Eve cannot be explained physically.
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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution.
[Re: APL]
#147985
12/05/12 05:12 PM
12/05/12 05:12 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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So, do you believe that the fallen angels mated with the sons of God in Genesis 6?
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. No. Do you? Certainly not. But then, there has been no genetic transfer of DNA or other genetic information from Lucifer to us, has there? What do you believe "seed" means or symbolizes in the Bible? Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution.
[Re: Rosangela]
#147987
12/05/12 09:45 PM
12/05/12 09:45 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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I've already read it. As I said, sin in the other angels who fell and in Adam and Eve cannot be explained physically. I'm glad you are sure of this fact. I'm not.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution.
[Re: APL]
#147988
12/05/12 11:52 PM
12/05/12 11:52 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Well, it's a logical conclusion. Angels don't even have a physical body. Besides, both the angels who fell and those who didn't were equally perfect, so no physical difference between them could account for the fact that some fell and some didn't. As to Adam and Eve, they were physically perfect - as perfect as the inhabitants of other worlds who didn't fall. So there is no way in which the fall of angels and that of Adam and Eve can be explained physically.
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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution.
[Re: Rosangela]
#147990
12/06/12 03:25 AM
12/06/12 03:25 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Well, it's a logical conclusion. Angels don't even have a physical body. Besides, both the angels who fell and those who didn't were equally perfect, so no physical difference between them could account for the fact that some fell and some didn't. As to Adam and Eve, they were physically perfect - as perfect as the inhabitants of other worlds who didn't fall. So there is no way in which the fall of angels and that of Adam and Eve can be explained physically. Do you know what kind of bodies that angels have? Bases on what writing do you claim that there is no difference between unfallen angels and fallen angels? After his fall, Satan's appearance changed. - I was shown Satan as he once was, a happy, exalted angel. Then I was shown him as he now is. He still bears a kingly form. His features are still noble, for he is an angel fallen. But the expression of his countenance is full of anxiety, care, unhappiness, malice, hate, mischief, deceit, and every evil. That brow which was once so noble, I particularly noticed. His forehead commenced from his eyes to recede. I saw that he had so long bent himself to evil that every good quality was debased, and every evil trait was developed. His eyes were cunning, sly, and showed great penetration. His frame was large, but the flesh hung loosely about his hands and face. As I beheld him, his chin was resting upon his left hand. He appeared to be in deep thought. A smile was upon his countenance, which made me tremble, it was so full of evil and satanic slyness. This smile is the one he wears just before he makes sure of his victim, and as he fastens the victim in his snare, this smile grows horrible. {EW 152.3}
And what about Jesus? Was it not still human after his resurrection? But, look at what he could do: - Luke 24:29-31 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them. 30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and broke, and gave to them. 31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
- Luke 24:36-40 And as they thus spoke, Jesus himself stood in the middle of them, and said to them, Peace be to you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said to them, Why are you troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones, as you see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet.
- John 20:26-28 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the middle, and said, Peace be to you. 27 Then said he to Thomas, Reach here your finger, and behold my hands; and reach here your hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said to him, My LORD and my God.
Can you understand how a human can do this? But he was real, his wounds visible, he was touchable. I do not think we can judge what an unfallen human can do based on what we see in us. We are so degenerated from what we once were. And this degeneration is encoded in DNA. It has to be. Do you not have DNA from our parents, and their ancestors? It is true, before their fall, Adam and Eve were perfect. But not after their fall. How else are physical characteristics passed on to the next generation?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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