So, you would say that this was a arbitrary test of obedience? Arbitrary because there was nothing in the fruit, just a arbitrary test. Would this be a fair understanding of your view?

In a sense, I suppose you could call it "arbitrary." I would not choose that term because it was a necessary test. There was a sound reason for it. In fact, the test was not only given on our planet, but on every planet. The trees of knowledge of good and evil collectively represented the freedom of choice that God had given to His creatures, and that if any should choose to join Satan in his rebellion, they could thus exhibit their choice, by partaking of the fruit. The fruit essentially represented our vote of confidence in God. If we chose to distrust Him, we could eat of it. If we chose to remain loyal, our loyalty would be shown by not eating of it.

Do you see this test as "arbitrary?"

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Man had a tree which they could choose to follow God or not. It is the tree of life. It will be an option in the earth made new.

Does the tree of life have any special properties in it? Or is it also just another tree?

The Tree of Life was not the test of loyalty. It did have special, life-giving properties. But there was no command given that they must eat from it. If you recall, the angels were afraid they would eat from it after their fall and live forever. It appears as though had they eaten of it even once, they would have become immortal sinners. But this they did not do, and they were prevented from doing so.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

As far from what I get from what it is written in the Laws of G-d, Christ crucifixion is neither a Moral influence nor a Penal substitution. Christ died because He and His Father are the creator of all things and thus OWNER. So according to their own laws of liabilities given to Moses, the owner bear full responsibility for what they have created whether in their creatures actions or whether causing an opportunity for some failures.

When God created man, He
....a)made man with the potential to sin,
....b)provided man with the opportunity to sin, and
....c)provided a tempter to provoke the sin.

The Owner of a Pit
Exodus 21:33 “And if a man opens a pit, or digs a pit and does not cover it over, and an ox or a donkey falls into it, 34 the owner of the pit shall make restitution; he shall give money to its owner, and the dead animal shall become his.”

Even thought he didn’t physically force the ox into the pit, according to His Law, the owner of the pit is liable for the incidence, because he ALLOWED it to happen by digging the pit and not covering it. He is liable on the grounds that he could have prevented it but did not. He created the OPPORTUNITY for the ox to fall into the pit. And so, the divine law rules that the owner of the pit is legally liable and must pay restitution to the animal's owner.

If we apply the spirit of this law to Adam's situation, G-d is both the owner of the pit and the owner of the ox (Adam). The Lord dug a pit in several ways: a)for creating man with the potential to sin, and b)provided the tree of knowledge within their reach. G-d did not cover this pit but instead did the opposite: c)provided a tempter to provoke the sin. The bottom line is He created an OPPORTUNITY for Adam (the ox) to fall into the pit (sin and death). So this made the Lord legally liable by His own law by which demand a resolution.

Restitution must be paid and "the dead animal shall become his." So Jesus bought the dead ox (Adam and all who died in Adam), and the ox became His. Jesus fulfilled the law to the letter, purchasing all who died in Adam.

The Owner of the Animals that grazes another’s field
Another law of liability state the following :
Ex 22:5 "If a man lets a field or vineyard be grazed bare and lets his animal loose so that it grazes in another man's field, he shall make restitution from the best of his own field and the best of his own vineyard.

In this law, the owner of the animals is liable. He cannot excuse himself by saying, "It was the ox choice, not mine. “ The owner is liable simply because he is the owner.

In this case, how was restitution paid? It was paid according to the law that says, "an eye for an eye," which in this case is "field for a field." Jesus said, "the field is the world" (Matt. 13:38). God ALLOWED one of his "beast" (the devil) to feed in another man's field. And consume the "whole field"--all flesh is as grass” (1Pet 1:24).

The Father upholds His own law of liability and "the best of his own field" (Jesus) was given to man as restitution.

The Owner of the Ox that Gored
Here’s another one.

Exodus 21:28 “And if an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall surely be stoned and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall go unpunished. 29 If, however, an ox was previously in the habit of goring, and its owner has been warned, yet he does not confine it, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned and its owner also shall be put to death. 30 If a ransom is demanded of him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is demanded of him. 31 Whether it gores a son or a daughter, it shall be done to him according to the same rule.

Satan(G-d's creature or "Beast") caused death to come upon A&E. The spirit of the law says that the offending beast must then be confined in order to prevent this from ever happening again. If not, the owner must pay with his life. The Lord did not confine His beast; the devil will only be confined during the Millenium (Rev. 20:1-3). Satan soon struck again in working through Cain to kill Abel. Satan was able to continued throughout history ‘till this day. This makes God liable.

God deliberately made Himself liable, not only for Adam's death, but for the death of all Adam's sons and daughters (v. 31) as well. This law demand a "ransom" as a result. Despite the demand of the law, Jesus voluntarily gave Himself as a ransom for ALL (1Tim 2:6). The demand is a "life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth". And so Christ came to pay "life for life" all the demands of His own law.

Does this make G-d a Sinner?
The definition of “sin” means “to miss the mark” or “to fail to reach a goal”. (Jud 20:16; Rom 3:23). The target is the divine law(1Jn 3:4). Any transgression of the Law is sin. When Man breaks a law, they fail to reach the perfect goal in bringing all restitution and reversing all the evil they caused in turning it to good. However, when the Lord breaks a law, He uses the Law to bring about all restitutions and will turn all evil into good at the end.

In essence, sin is a failure to reach a particular goal. God created His goals before He created the earth which we call the plan of salvation and is also known as the Restitution of all things (Act 3:21). He will not fail in accomplishing any of the laws that was laid out to Moses. All Laws will be fulfilled and all restritutions will be fully paid.

His plan is stretch out in a time frame according to His Law of Jubilee (49 x 1000 years).

Does this means Man is release of all Liabilities?
No, absolutely not. The liability laws and other laws applies to all men also. All sins has different levels of accountabilities shared among the party's involve depending on knowledge and ownership of the matter. But because G-d is far greater than man as He is all powerfull and all knowing, His level of accountability is far greater than man.

Elle,


I understand what you are saying. Those laws make sense, and it makes sense that God would be both consistent and fair in making His laws. God is not outside of His laws, but He Himself is subject to the binding claims of His law of love.

Is God forced to love us--by His own law? I don't think so. I believe God has the same freedom of choice that in love He has given to us. But I think it is His nature to love. He cannot stop loving us. But He hates sin. Why? Because sin hurts us, and He loves us.

The example of the ox is different. The ox does not have the same power of choice that we have, nor a soul to be saved. The owner of the ox cannot bring it back to life, nor convert it from the error of its way, by giving his life for the ox. The object lesson that God may be giving us through the civil law related to the ox is but a representation of His own sacrifice for us, and does not fully comprehend that sacrifice.

God gave His life out of love--which is God's law. The law required His death. We tend to view laws in the negative. But in the sinless perfection of the universe, laws still exist and are positive. The law requiring Jesus' death was love. Jesus died out of His great love for unworthy sinners. In light of the object which God sought to accomplish, the salvation of sinners and the return of peace and sinlessness to the universe, there was no other way than for Jesus to die. That death accomplished what nothing else could. It showed all the tremendous love of God, and the lengths to which God would go to preserve His creation, His law, and His honor. It would cost Him His life--but He would give it gladly for the joy that was set before Him.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

• In order to possess an endless existence, man must continue to partake of the tree of life. Deprived of this, his vitality would gradually diminish until life should become extinct. It was Satan's plan that Adam and Eve should by disobedience incur God's displeasure; and then, if they failed to obtain forgiveness, he hoped that they would eat of the tree of life, and thus perpetuate an existence of sin and misery. But after man's fall, holy angels were immediately commissioned to guard the tree of life. Around these angels flashed beams of light having the appearance of a glittering sword. None of the family of Adam were permitted to pass the barrier to partake of the life-giving fruit; hence there is not an immortal sinner. {PP 60.3}

In the new earth, there will be a tree of life; man will still have free will. If a man choose not to eat of the tree, he will die. No one will die because all will eat from it.

If the tree of life had something biologically active, then it is not a hard stretch to think the tree of the knowledge of good and evil also had something biologically active. Put there by God? no! By the adversary. And I think we can see what that something was. We see it active today.

God's restriction on eating from the tree was NOT arbitrary. God is not arbitrary in anything. The restriction from eating of the tree was for a good reason. It was Satan's means to deprave human nature.
You GC and dedication and Roangela have not quoted the most diffult EGW quotes on the tree of knowledge yet.

Is God responsible for sin? No at all.

• In the day of final judgment, every lost soul will understand the nature of his own rejection of truth. The cross will be presented, and its real bearing will be seen by every mind that has been blinded by transgression. Before the vision of Calvary with its mysterious Victim, sinners will stand condemned. Every lying excuse will be swept away. Human apostasy will appear in its heinous character. Men will see what their choice has been. Every question of truth and error in the long-standing controversy will then have been made plain. In the judgment of the universe, God will stand clear of blame for the existence or continuance of evil. It will be demonstrated that the divine decrees are not accessory to sin. There was no defect in God's government, no cause for disaffection. When the thoughts of all hearts shall be revealed, both the loyal and the rebellious will unite in declaring, "Just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints. Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? . . . for Thy judgments are made manifest." Revelation 15:3, 4. {DA 58.1}

Note - in the Judgement of the universe... God is on trial, and He will be vindicated!

I wonder however is GC/dedication/Rosangela hold God responsible for sin. From an engineering point of view, God created a weak system, which by a single thought in the beginning, brought the whole system into chaos. Certainly a weak design. But it is not a weak design! It had to be attacked. The operating system needed to be rewritten. Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect,...

About several points which are being discussed:

The sin of this age is disregard of God's express commands. The power of influence in a wrong direction is very great. Eve had all that her wants required. There was nothing lacking to make her happy, but intemperate appetite desired the fruit of the only tree that God had withheld. {3T 483.1}

Eve really believed the words of Satan, but her belief did not save her from the penalty of sin. She disbelieved the words of God, and this was what led to her fall. In the judgment men will not be condemned because they conscientiously believed a lie, but because they did not believe the truth, because they neglected the opportunity of learning what is truth. . . .{DG 24.2}

Adam ventured to transgress one prohibition of God which was the test that God gave to man to try his loyalty and obedience. There was nothing in the fruit of the tree of knowledge that was dangerous in itself, but the danger was in Adam and Eve listening to Satan and venturing to transgress. {1SAT 227.2}

There was nothing poisonous in the fruit of the tree of knowledge itself, nothing that would cause death in partaking of it. The tree had been placed in the garden to test their loyalty to God.—ST Feb. 13, 1896. {TA 56.2}

In addition to the quotes Rosangela provided above, perhaps you are looking for this one?


These aren't difficult passages for us. Only for those who would try to say there was harm in the fruit--something that would damage their genetics--would these passages be difficult.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Having G-d making Himself liable does not negate, nor diminish His Love nor does it obligates Him to die for us. I see no force of love by making himself liable. In the contrary, it is a full and deeper expression of love as explained below.

Remember Christ said that He came to fulfill all the Laws(Torah - 5 first books) without an iota will pass. So He came to fulfill the laws of liabilities also.

You have reduced those laws to civil laws, but all the laws are spiritual and prophetic in meanings.

Since G-d is Love -- Love is the basis of all His Laws and works even in all His judgments. He designed the plan of Restitution of all things before He created anything. According to the Spirit of His Laws, He laid out in His plan to be liable for Adam's and the whole world sins before they fell. This is the ultimate plan and expression of pure love, wisdom, justice, and grace all combined to His glory.

It has nothing to do with choice or freewill. All the law of liabilities points out solely to the OWNER's Liability which include in creating an OPPORTUNITY. I think you missed the first law of liability in my post.


It is nice to want to give the Lord a blameless integrity to put all liabilites on man or satan or both. Man and Satan does share some liabilities, but not the ultimate nor the greatest in proportion for the Lord is the biggest and the creator of all. However, the argument that God merely allowed sin to occur does not really resolve the problem. It only dilutes the problem.

James 4:17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do, and does not do it, to him it is sin.

It is inevitable knowledge that He created man with the ability to fall. To top this, we know that the Lord had the foreknowledge of man's fall and the foreknowledge of its consequences. According to the traditional belief of this end scenario is that 95% will burn in hell, and we are to believe that in this tiny victory that Love is stronger than anything and this brings Him all glory???

While this doesn't make sense, this belief is based on the sin liability which does not even aligns with the mind of the Lord spoken in His Laws of Liabilities given to Moses.