The thread title is "Do We Really Understand Conversion?"

What then is conversion?

After faithful labor, if you are satisfied that your children understand the meaning of conversion and baptism and are truly converted, let them be baptized. {CG 500.2}

Candidates who have grown to manhood and womanhood should understand their duty better than do the younger ones; but the pastor of the church has a duty to do for these souls. Have they wrong habits and practices? It is the duty of the pastor to have special meetings with them. Give them Bible readings, converse and pray with them, and plainly show the claims of the Lord upon them. Read to them the teaching of the Bible in regard to conversion. Show what is the fruit of conversion, the evidence that they love God. Show that true conversion is a change of heart, of thoughts and purposes. Evil habits are to be given up. The sins of evil-speaking, of jealousy, of disobedience, are to be put away. A warfare must be waged against every evil trait of character. Then the believing one can understandingly take to himself the promise: "Ask, and it shall be given you." Matthew 7:7. 544 {CCh 297.3}

The preparation for baptism is a matter that needs to be carefully considered. The new converts to the truth should be faithfully instructed in the plain "Thus saith the Lord." The Word of the Lord is to be read and explained to them point by point. {Ev 308.1}

All who enter upon the new life should understand, prior to their baptism, that the Lord requires the undivided affections. . . . The practicing of the truth is essential. The bearing of fruit testifies to the character of the tree. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. The line of demarcation will be plain and distinct between those who love God and keep His commandments and those who love Him not and disregard His precepts. There is need of a thorough conversion to the truth.--Manuscript 56, 1900. {Ev 308.2}

The test of discipleship is not brought to bear as closely as it should be upon those who present themselves for baptism. . . . When they give evidence that they fully understand their position, they are to be accepted.--Testimonies to Ministers, p. 128. (1897) {Ev 308.3}

Thorough Preparation for Baptism.--There is need of a more thorough preparation on the part of candidates for baptism. They are in need of more faithful instruction than has usually been given them. The principles of the Christian life should be made plain to those who have newly come to the truth. None can depend upon their profession of faith as proof that they have a saving connection with Christ. We are not only to say, "I believe," but to practice the truth. It is by conformity to the will of God in our words, our deportment, our character, that we prove our connection with Him. Whenever one renounces sin, which is the transgression of the law, his life will be brought into conformity to the law, into perfect obedience. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. The light of the Word carefully studied, the voice of conscience, the strivings of the Spirit, produce in the heart genuine love for Christ, who gave Himself a whole sacrifice to redeem the whole person, body, soul, and spirit. And love is manifested in obedience.--Testimonies, vol. 6, pp. 91, 92. (1900) {Ev 308.4}

The test of discipleship is not brought to bear as closely as it should be upon those who present themselves for baptism. It should be understood whether they are simply taking the name of Seventh-day Adventists, or whether they are taking their stand on the Lord's side, to come out from the world and be separate, and touch not the unclean thing. Before baptism, there should be a thorough inquiry as to the experience of the candidates. Let this inquiry be made, not in a cold and distant way, but kindly, tenderly, pointing the new converts to the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Bring the requirements of the gospel to bear upon the candidates for baptism. {Ev 311.2}

One of the points upon which those newly come to the faith will need instruction is the subject of dress. Let the new converts be faithfully dealt with. Are they vain in dress? Do they cherish pride of heart? The idolatry of dress is a moral disease. It must not be taken over into the new life. In most cases, submission to the gospel requirements will demand a decided change in the dress. {Ev 312.1}

There should be no carelessness in dress. For Christ's sake, whose witnesses we are, we should seek to make the best of our appearance. In the tabernacle service, God specified every detail concerning the garments of those who ministered before Him. Thus we are taught that He has a preference in regard to the dress of those who serve Him. Very specific were the directions given in regard to Aaron's robes, for his dress was symbolic. So the dress of Christ's followers should be symbolic. In all things we are to be representatives of Him. Our appearance in every respect should be characterized by neatness, modesty, and purity. But the Word of God gives no sanction to the making of changes in apparel merely for the sake of fashion,--that we may appear like the world. Christians are not to decorate the person with costly array or expensive ornaments. {Ev 312.2}

The words of Scripture in regard to dress should be carefully considered. We need to understand that which the Lord of heaven appreciates in even the dressing of the body. All who are in earnest in seeking for the grace of Christ will heed the precious words of instruction inspired by God. Even the style of the apparel will express the truth of the gospel. {Ev 312.3}

All who study the life of Christ and practice His teachings will become like Christ. Their influence will be like His. They will reveal soundness of character. As they walk in the humble path of obedience, doing the will of God, they exert an influence that tells for the advancement of the cause of God and the healthful purity of His work. In these thoroughly converted souls the world is to have a witness to the sanctifying power of truth upon the human character. {Ev 313.1}

The knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ, expressed in character, is an exaltation above everything that is esteemed in earth or in heaven. It is the very highest education. It is the key that opens the portals of the heavenly city. This knowledge it is God's purpose that all who put on Christ by baptism shall possess. And it is the duty of God's servants to set before these souls the privilege of their high calling in Christ Jesus.--Testimonies, vol. 6, pp. 95-97. (1900) {Ev 313.2}

Judge by the Fruit of the Life.--There is one thing that we have no right to do, and that is to judge another man's heart or impugn his motives. But when a person presents himself as a candidate for church membership, we are to examine the fruit of his life, and leave the responsibility of his motive with himself. But great care should be exercised in accepting members into the church; for Satan has his specious devices through which he purposes to crowd false brethren into the church, through whom he can work more successfully to weaken the cause of God.--Review and Herald, Jan. 10, 1893. {Ev 313.3}

We can understand conversion by studying what is required of new converts. Passages like the ones posted above describe it very well.

Rosangela, do people experience true, genuine, thorough conversion before they are thoroughly indoctrinated, before they become familiar with "all things whatsoever" Jesus "commanded"?

Of course. You cannot fix the moment for the person to be born again. "The wind blows where it wishes." You cannot say that persons can only be converted after all their sins have been revealed to them and after they have been thoroughly indoctrinated. They are born again when they fall in love with Jesus and surrender their lives to Him, whether all their sins have been revealed to them or not, whether they have been thoroughly indoctrinated or not.

I am impressed with the passages I posted above. Conversion is the fruit of thorough indoctrination. People who are not thoroughly converted are sources of perplexity at home and at church.

How thoroughly converted was the thief on the cross?

This speaks of conversion to Catholicism and legalism.


Conversion to Christ is the fruit of God's Spirit leading a soul to repentance, from a life of crime and selfishness.
From a human nature to a born again nature.

______________________

This is true Mike. EGW said not even one in 200 were converted in her day. This could comprise entire congregations.

One of the greatest confusions in churches is the marriage & remarriage of pastors and church officials. Such acts are condoned by the conference leaders and the GC, yet marriage is a symbol of Christ's union with His people. How perplexing for all - a sort of marital musical chairs - who's next?
No, Christ will not leave us.

______________________________

As converted as Peter, Paul, and John.

Taking a little peek...

Was Paul converted on the road to Damascus? Or was he converted after his 3-year study in Arabia?

To the desert of Arabia he went, there to study the Scriptures and to learn of God. He emptied his soul of prejudices and traditions that had shaped his life, and received instruction from the Source of truth. {Ed 65.3}

I know a lot of people who were thoroughly indoctrinated and are not converted. OTOH, when someone is converted, he/she will accept every ray of light which reaches him/her and walk in that light.

The light given me is, that instead of presenting the subject of health reform abruptly to a congregation of unbelievers, our laborers should first reach the hearts by presenting Christ and Him crucified. Many unbelievers know no more of health reform than do babies. True, the laborers must dwell on reforms; but let them first endeavor to touch and tender the hearts of the people and lead them to be converted. After conversion, men and women will be ready to receive instruction in regard to further reforms, and will permit their teachers to lead them along step by step into the full light of the present truth. {KC 142.8}

But God in His providence not only spared Saul's life, but converted him, thus transferring a champion from the side of the enemy to the side of Christ. {AA 124.2}

After his escape from Damascus, Paul went to Jerusalem, about three years having passed since his conversion. {AA 128.3}

Good point. Conversion can occur before people learn everything there is to know about vegetarianism. Of course a diet in harmony with the Bible is not a sin. "The sins that were practised before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on 'kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering.' {SD 300.3} "The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices, they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. {LHU 123.4}

Again, as you can see, the idea that people who experience true, genuine, thorough conversion in God's appointed way ignorantly retain some of their cultivated sinful habits is not supported in the Bible or the SOP. "All selfishness is covetousness, and is, therefore, idolatry. {CS 223.1} "All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking, is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart. {YRP 289.3}

Away with cake. Persons may kill themselves with sweets. More harm is done to children by sweets than by anything else. {1SAT 12.2}

Is that a sin?

And about testing truths. And, according to EGW, it's not that it can occur, it's that it should occur.

Present Testing Truths After Conversion.--You should not feel it your duty to introduce arguments upon the Sabbath question as you meet the people. If persons mention the subject, tell them that this is not your burden now. But when they surrender heart and mind and will to God, they are then prepared candidly to weigh evidence in regard to these solemn, testing truths.--Letter 77, 1895. {Ev 485.2}

All acts of injustice that tend to shorten life; the spirit of hatred and revenge, or the indulgence of any passion that leads to injurious acts toward others, or causes us even to wish them harm (for "whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer"); a selfish neglect of caring for the needy or suffering; all self-indulgence or unnecessary deprivation or excessive labor that tends to injure health--all these are, to a greater or less degree, violations of the sixth commandment. {PP 308.5}

Converted people never do any of these, such as working too much at the office, or maybe staying up late to post on an online discussion? Is eating white bread "self-indulgence"? Is eating only whole wheat bread "unnecessary deprivation"?

Is it "self-indulgence" to eat too much salt and "unnecessary deprivation" to not eat enough? Do all converted people know exactly how much salt to eat?

Now change salt to ice cream. How about that?

Actually, that's easy. Converted people do not eat ice cream, unless it is vegan ice cream. And not very cold, because very cold food is bad for you.

Food should not be eaten very hot or very cold. If food is cold, the vital force of the stomach is drawn upon in order to warm it before digestion can take place. Cold drinks are injurious for the same reason; while the free use of hot drinks is debilitating. {CD 106.3}

This means that converted people do not drink ice water either.

So, if someone wants to be baptized, offer them ice water. If they take it, then they are not ready. Does that sound about right?

[Baptismal] Candidates who have grown to manhood and womanhood should understand their duty better than do the younger ones; but the pastor of the church has a duty to do for these souls. Have they wrong habits and practices? It is the duty of the pastor to have special meetings with them. Give them Bible readings, converse and pray with them, and plainly show the claims of the Lord upon them. Read to them the teaching of the Bible in regard to conversion. Show what is the fruit of conversion, the evidence that they love God. Show that true conversion is a change of heart, of thoughts and purposes. Evil habits are to be given up. The sins of evil-speaking, of jealousy, of disobedience, are to be put away. A warfare must be waged against every evil trait of character. Then the believing one can understandingly take to himself the promise: "Ask, and it shall be given you." Matthew 7:7. 544 {CCh 297.3}

Somehow all the passages posted above harmonize with the truth.

Or offer it with their meals!

Again, living in harmony with the Bible is not a sin. But eating pork is a sin. Breaking the Sabbath is a sin. People who complete the process of conversion in God's appointed way are not ignorant of biblical lifestyle choices. They may be ignorant of SOP lifestyle choices but such ignorance does not constitute sinning.

Again,

You should not feel it your duty to introduce arguments upon the Sabbath question as you meet the people. If persons mention the subject, tell them that this is not your burden now. But when they surrender heart and mind and will to God, they are then prepared candidly to weigh evidence in regard to these solemn, testing truths.--Letter 77, 1895. {Ev 485.2}

Rosangela offers further evidence that conversion is not the fruit of "thorough indoctrination".
In fact she shows quite the opposite, that such indoctrination should not precede conversion.

Where did you learn your approach Mike?

__________________

I'm supposed to be on vacation from here, but I'm missing out on so much fun...

Look what God said BEFORE He gave the Ten Commandments: I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. (Exodus 20:2)

If indoctrination comes before conversion, then God would have taken them aside in Egypt and said something like, "Do these first, then I'll save you."

And He didn't change His mind, as Jesus made clear: Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; (Matthew 28:19-20)

Here are Christ's step-by-step instructions:
1. Go
2. make disciples
3. baptize them
4. teach them to observe all things that I have commanded you

If conversion comes after step 4, then Jesus was instructing us to baptize and make disciples out of unconverted people. That would be problematic.

Clarification Arnold.

That is problematic.

____________________

After faithful labor, if you are satisfied that your children understand the meaning of conversion and baptism and are truly converted, let them be baptized. {CG 500.2}

Candidates who have grown to manhood and womanhood should understand their duty better than do the younger ones; but the pastor of the church has a duty to do for these souls. Have they wrong habits and practices? It is the duty of the pastor to have special meetings with them. Give them Bible readings, converse and pray with them, and plainly show the claims of the Lord upon them. Read to them the teaching of the Bible in regard to conversion. Show what is the fruit of conversion, the evidence that they love God. Show that true conversion is a change of heart, of thoughts and purposes. Evil habits are to be given up. The sins of evil-speaking, of jealousy, of disobedience, are to be put away. A warfare must be waged against every evil trait of character. Then the believing one can understandingly take to himself the promise: "Ask, and it shall be given you." Matthew 7:7. 544 {CCh 297.3}

The preparation for baptism is a matter that needs to be carefully considered. The new converts to the truth should be faithfully instructed in the plain "Thus saith the Lord." The Word of the Lord is to be read and explained to them point by point. {Ev 308.1}

All who enter upon the new life should understand, prior to their baptism, that the Lord requires the undivided affections. . . . The practicing of the truth is essential. The bearing of fruit testifies to the character of the tree. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. The line of demarcation will be plain and distinct between those who love God and keep His commandments and those who love Him not and disregard His precepts. There is need of a thorough conversion to the truth.--Manuscript 56, 1900. {Ev 308.2}

The test of discipleship is not brought to bear as closely as it should be upon those who present themselves for baptism. . . . When they give evidence that they fully understand their position, they are to be accepted.--Testimonies to Ministers, p. 128. (1897) {Ev 308.3}

Thorough Preparation for Baptism.--There is need of a more thorough preparation on the part of candidates for baptism. They are in need of more faithful instruction than has usually been given them. The principles of the Christian life should be made plain to those who have newly come to the truth. None can depend upon their profession of faith as proof that they have a saving connection with Christ. We are not only to say, "I believe," but to practice the truth. It is by conformity to the will of God in our words, our deportment, our character, that we prove our connection with Him. Whenever one renounces sin, which is the transgression of the law, his life will be brought into conformity to the law, into perfect obedience. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. The light of the Word carefully studied, the voice of conscience, the strivings of the Spirit, produce in the heart genuine love for Christ, who gave Himself a whole sacrifice to redeem the whole person, body, soul, and spirit. And love is manifested in obedience.--Testimonies, vol. 6, pp. 91, 92. (1900) {Ev 308.4}

The test of discipleship is not brought to bear as closely as it should be upon those who present themselves for baptism. It should be understood whether they are simply taking the name of Seventh-day Adventists, or whether they are taking their stand on the Lord's side, to come out from the world and be separate, and touch not the unclean thing. Before baptism, there should be a thorough inquiry as to the experience of the candidates. Let this inquiry be made, not in a cold and distant way, but kindly, tenderly, pointing the new converts to the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Bring the requirements of the gospel to bear upon the candidates for baptism. {Ev 311.2}

One of the points upon which those newly come to the faith will need instruction is the subject of dress. Let the new converts be faithfully dealt with. Are they vain in dress? Do they cherish pride of heart? The idolatry of dress is a moral disease. It must not be taken over into the new life. In most cases, submission to the gospel requirements will demand a decided change in the dress. {Ev 312.1}

There should be no carelessness in dress. For Christ's sake, whose witnesses we are, we should seek to make the best of our appearance. In the tabernacle service, God specified every detail concerning the garments of those who ministered before Him. Thus we are taught that He has a preference in regard to the dress of those who serve Him. Very specific were the directions given in regard to Aaron's robes, for his dress was symbolic. So the dress of Christ's followers should be symbolic. In all things we are to be representatives of Him. Our appearance in every respect should be characterized by neatness, modesty, and purity. But the Word of God gives no sanction to the making of changes in apparel merely for the sake of fashion,--that we may appear like the world. Christians are not to decorate the person with costly array or expensive ornaments. {Ev 312.2}

The words of Scripture in regard to dress should be carefully considered. We need to understand that which the Lord of heaven appreciates in even the dressing of the body. All who are in earnest in seeking for the grace of Christ will heed the precious words of instruction inspired by God. Even the style of the apparel will express the truth of the gospel. {Ev 312.3}

All who study the life of Christ and practice His teachings will become like Christ. Their influence will be like His. They will reveal soundness of character. As they walk in the humble path of obedience, doing the will of God, they exert an influence that tells for the advancement of the cause of God and the healthful purity of His work. In these thoroughly converted souls the world is to have a witness to the sanctifying power of truth upon the human character. {Ev 313.1}

The knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ, expressed in character, is an exaltation above everything that is esteemed in earth or in heaven. It is the very highest education. It is the key that opens the portals of the heavenly city. This knowledge it is God's purpose that all who put on Christ by baptism shall possess. And it is the duty of God's servants to set before these souls the privilege of their high calling in Christ Jesus.--Testimonies, vol. 6, pp. 95-97. (1900) {Ev 313.2}

Judge by the Fruit of the Life.--There is one thing that we have no right to do, and that is to judge another man's heart or impugn his motives. But when a person presents himself as a candidate for church membership, we are to examine the fruit of his life, and leave the responsibility of his motive with himself. But great care should be exercised in accepting members into the church; for Satan has his specious devices through which he purposes to crowd false brethren into the church, through whom he can work more successfully to weaken the cause of God.--Review and Herald, Jan. 10, 1893. {Ev 313.3}

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Now, just now, is the time to obey the commission, "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you" (Matthew 28:20). Those who do this work must have a ready knowledge of the Scriptures. "It is written" is to be their weapon of defense. {UL 58.2}

Christ, the great Medical Missionary, is no longer in our world in person. But He has not left the world in darkness. To His subjects He has given the commission, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature," "teaching them ... all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." {20MR 262.2}

Here are Christ's step-by-step instructions:
1. Go
2. make disciples
3. baptize them
4. teach them to observe all things that I have commanded you

What teaching is done before and after they become disciples and get baptized?

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

1. Go
2. Preach
3. Believe
4. Baptized

A half conversion is only a snare to betray other souls into the same divided service. Every truly converted soul shows a transformation in character, and a marked change takes place. (Diary Fragments, June, 1903.) {12MR 83.3}

We do not realize how untiring are Satan's efforts to sap our spirituality. He is working mightily that the people of God may be only half converted. Then self will swell to large proportions, and there will be no revelation to the world of the transforming power of God. If this power does not rest upon God's people and move them to sanctified action, they cannot do the work in the earth that has been shown us must be done. Without this power, they will not realize their responsibility as his representatives in a world of unbelief. {GCB, June 6, 1913 par. 9}

Every one may find something to do in saving souls and advancing the truth of God. It is because men are not more than half converted that the church is so lifeless. There are many who are, and have been all their lives, only half Christians. {ST, March 10, 1898 par. 6}

Some teachers and managers who are only half converted are stumbling blocks to others. They concede some things and make half reforms; but when greater knowledge comes, they refuse to advance, preferring to work according to their own ideas. In doing this they pluck and eat of that tree of knowledge which places the human above the divine. {6T 141.2}

I saw that unless there is an entire change in the young, a thorough conversion, they may despair of heaven. From what has been shown me, there are not more than half of the young who profess religion and the truth, who have been truly converted. If they had been converted, they would bear fruit to the glory of God. Many are leaning upon a supposed hope, without a true foundation. The fountain is not cleansed, therefore the streams proceeding from that fountain are not pure. Cleanse the fountain, and the streams will be pure. {MYP 131.1}

Thorough conversion is necessary among those who profess to believe the truth, in order for them to follow Jesus and obey the will of God -- not a submission born of circumstances, as was that of the terrified Israelites when the power of the Infinite was revealed to them, but a deep and heartfelt repentance and renunciation of sin. Those who are but half converted are as a tree whose boughs hang upon the side of truth, but whose roots, firmly bedded in the earth, strike out into the barren soil of the world. Jesus looks in vain for fruit upon its branches; He finds nothing but leaves. {4T 155.3}

Said Christ, "He that will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross and follow me." To follow Jesus fully requires a thorough conversion. Half-way converts make half-hearted Christians. Again, said Christ, "He that is not for me is against me, and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad." The plain words of truth spoken by our Saviour sifted his followers down to a few faithful ones who laid the foundation of the Christian church. {RH, December 2, 1875 par. 5}

That's a side issue. There's a more fundamental point to settle.

Jesus said to "teach them to observe all things that I have commanded you." Does conversion happen before or after that?


Where does conversion fit in that list? And when do they "become familiar with 'all things whatsoever' Jesus 'commanded'"?

Sounds like you just said that if you sin ignorantly, that is not sin.

So it would follow, that if you truly believe eating pork is not a sin, it is not a sin. And if you truly believe that after Jesus death, that the Sabbath is no longer binding, being "nailed to the cross", then breaking it is not a sin.

Not sure I agree with your idea of ignorance. As someone said, sin is sin.

It's another question of whether people who ignorantly sin will be saved. If they had the opportunity to know better, one would think they would be held accountable.

Convert to what? Convert to believe and behave in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. People begin the long, patient, protracted process of converting when they begin learning about Jesus and the truth. But they do not complete the process until they learn to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. All the quotes I posted above make it clear true, genuine, thorough conversion results in living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Of course there are many nice and wonderful things people learn thereafter for the rest of eternity.

The differences between biblical and SOP lifestyle choices is not sin. People can live in harmony with biblical lifestyle choices but be ignorant of SOP lifestyle choices and not be guilty of sinning.

In light of the passages posted above - What is the difference between half converted and thoroughly converted?

I think that takes us to the root of the discussion. The answer to the thread title is: No.

I understand conversion to be a change of heart - spirit, motives, intentions, purposes, character. Behavior changes, but it displays conversion, rather than defines it. That means at least one of us doesn't understand conversion.

I would not be surprised to see Luther in heaven, even though he spent his entire life breaking Christ's clear command to keep the seventh day holy. He might have had false beliefs and faulty behavior, but if his heart was right, he'll be fine.

And with that, I bid you all farewell once more.

Luther was in the process of converting to obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded, but clearly he died before he was able to complete the process. "Luther was as yet but partially converted from the errors of Romanism. {GC 139.2} He, and others like him, will be in heaven because he lived up to the light he believed.


"A holy temper, a Christlike life, is accessible to every repenting, believing child of God." This is true of people from the moment they experience true, genuine, thorough conversion in God's appointed way. Most, unfortunately, do not complete the process of conversion. They begin it alright, but they do not finish it.

The idea that people complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded before there is "a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether," before "sinful thoughts are put away, evil deeds are renounced; love, humility, and peace take the place of anger, envy, and strife" is simply not representative of true, genuine, thorough conversion.

Mike, the title of this thread is "Do we really understand conversion?" The conversion we are speaking about is repentance and renunciation of sin.
Of course Ellen White is not speaking about this when she says that Luther was partially converted. Or do you think she was?

"Thy sins be forgiven thee." These words are spoken to the repentant, believing soul. Wonderful Saviour! All need to understand the process of conversion. The fruit is seen in the changed life. True repentance will be shown to be sincere by producing fruit in good works. None can depend upon their profession of faith as proof that they have a saving connection with Christ. It is by conformity to the will of God in our words, our deportment, our character that we prove our connection with him. We cannot depend on any other one to do our work for us. We must perform our duties for ourselves. We must work the will of God, and delight to do his commandments. Then we shall not lean upon any one but Jesus Christ for support and efficiency. {6MR 157.2}

I have been shown that many have confused ideas in regard to conversion. They have often heard the words repeated from the pulpit, "Ye must be born again." "You must have a new heart." These expressions have perplexed them. They could not comprehend the plan of salvation. {Ev 286.1}

The conversion of the human soul is of no little consequence. It is the greatest miracle performed by divine power. Actual results are to be reached through a belief in Christ as a personal Saviour. Purified by obedience to the law of God, sanctified by a perfect observance of His holy Sabbath, trusting, believing, patiently waiting, and earnestly working out our own salvation with fear and trembling, we shall learn that it is God that worketh in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. {Ev 289.2}

he conversion of souls to God is the greatest work, the highest work, in which human beings can have a part. In the conversion of souls God's forbearance, His unbounded love, His holiness, His power, are revealed. Every true conversion glorifies Him, and causes the angels to break forth into singing. "Mercy and truth have met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other." {Ev 292.1}

Conversion is a work that most do not appreciate. It is not a small matter to transform an earthly, sin-loving mind and bring it to understand the unspeakable love of Christ, the charms of His grace, and the excellency of God, so that the soul shall be imbued with divine love and captivated with the heavenly mysteries. When he understands these things, his former life appears disgusting and hateful. He hates sin, and, breaking his heart before God, he embraces Christ as the life and joy of the soul. He renounces his former pleasures. He has a new mind, new affections, new interest, new will; his sorrows, and desires, and love are all new. . . . Heaven, which once possessed no charms, is now viewed in its riches and glory; and he contemplates it as his future home, where he shall see, love, and praise the One who hath redeemed him by His precious blood. The works of holiness, which appeared wearisome, are now his delight. The Word of God, which was dull and uninteresting, is now chosen as his study, the man of his counsel. It is as a letter written to him from God, bearing the inscription of the Eternal. His thoughts, his words, and his deeds are brought to this rule and tested. He trembles at the commands and threatenings which it contains, while he firmly grasps its promises and strengthens his soul by appropriating them to himself. {FLB 139.2}

The change essential is conversion from error to truth. The temple lies in ruins, and an attempt to build it with the same old material is useless. Only the power of God can transform the character of man, conforming him to the image of Christ in heart and mind, for even the thoughts are to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. Only think of the work to be done. God takes fallen man, a worm of the dust, and transforms him, fitting him to be a member of the heavenly family, a companion through eternal ages, of the angels and of Jesus Christ. He who submits to this process will see God's face, and hold communion with Him. {TSA 74.1}

When the truth is received into the heart it commences its leavening, transforming process. Sin will appear hateful. That soul will, through faith and willing obedience to God's commandments, enlist in his behalf a strength more mighty than his own to combine with his human efforts to resist the enemy. {3MR 117.1}

O, that every soul might be awakened, and led to become a subject of the heavenly kingdom, surrendering all to Christ. The word of God gives us no encouragement that a sinner is pardoned in order that he may continue in sin. He is pardoned on condition that he receives Christ, confessing and repenting of his sin and becoming renewed. Many who pass under the name of Christian are not converted. Conversion means renovation. The sinner must enter into the renovating process for himself. He must come to Jesus. He must give up the wrong habits in which he has indulged. He must bring his unsubdued, unchristlike tendencies under the control of Christ, else he cannot be made a laborer together with God. Christ works, and the sinner works. The life of Christ becomes the life of the human agent. It is through the renewing power of the divine Spirit that man is fashioned into a perfect man in Christ. {LLM 103.5}

By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {Mar 70.2}

Rosangela, the process of conversion described in the passages posted above clearly define what counts as true, genuine, thorough conversion. There is more to it than merely acknowledging Jesus as Lord and Savior, more than merely having a desire to know the truth, more than merely choosing to pursue perfection.

O, that every soul might be awakened, and led to become a subject of the heavenly kingdom, surrendering all to Christ. The word of God gives us no encouragement that a sinner is pardoned in order that he may continue in sin. He is pardoned on condition that he receives Christ, confessing and repenting of his sin and becoming renewed. Many who pass under the name of Christian are not converted. Conversion means renovation. The sinner must enter into the renovating process for himself. He must come to Jesus. He must give up the wrong habits in which he has indulged. He must bring his unsubdued, unchristlike tendencies under the control of Christ, else he cannot be made a laborer together with God. Christ works, and the sinner works. The life of Christ becomes the life of the human agent. It is through the renewing power of the divine Spirit that man is fashioned into a perfect man in Christ. {LLM 103.5}

Oh, what can I say to open blind eyes, to enlighten the spiritual understanding! Sin must be crucified. A complete moral renovation must be wrought by the Holy Spirit. We must have the love of God, with living, abiding faith. This is the gold tried in the fire. We can obtain it only of Christ. Every sincere and earnest seeker will become a partaker of the divine nature. His soul will be filled with intense longing to know the fullness of that love which passes knowledge; as he advances in the divine life he will be better able to grasp the elevated, ennobling truths of the word of God, until by beholding he becomes changed and is enabled to reflect the likeness of his Redeemer. {5T 105.2}

Christ's teaching softened and subdued the soul. The truth received into the heart will work a renovation in the soul. Those who love Jesus will love the souls for whom He died. The truth planted in the heart will reveal the love of Jesus and its transforming power. Anything harsh, sour, critical, domineering, is not of Christ, but proceeds from Satan. Coldness, heartlessness, want of tender sympathy, are leavening the camp of Israel. If these evils are permitted to strengthen as they have done for some years in the past, our churches will be in a deplorable condition. Every teacher of the truth needs the Christlike principle in his character. There will be no frowns, no scolding, no expressions of contempt, on the part of any man who is cultivating the graces of Christianity. He feels that he must be a partaker of the divine nature, and he must be replenished from the exhaustless fountain of heavenly grace, else he will lose the milk of human kindness out of his soul. We must love men for Christ's sake. {TM 156.1}

And as men and women are converted to the truth, those standing at the head of the mission should, with much prayer, show these new converts how to experience the power of the truth in their hearts. Such a mission, if conducted by those who know how to manage wisely, will be a light shining in a dark place. {Ev 108.1}

The Lord does not now work to bring many souls into the truth, because of the church members who have never been converted, and those who were once converted but who have backslidden. {Ev 110.2}

Every soul converted is to have the light in regard to the Lord's requirement for tithes and offerings. {Ev 249.3}

Abstinence from all hurtful food and drink is the fruit of true religion. He who is thoroughly converted will abandon every injurious habit and appetite. By total abstinence he will overcome his desire for health-destroying indulgences. {Ev 263.4}

Men and women have many habits that are antagonistic to the principles of the Bible. The victims of strong drink and tobacco are corrupted, body, soul, and spirit. Such ones should not be received into the church until they give evidence that they are truly converted, that they feel the need of the faith that works by love and purifies the soul. The truth of God will purify the true believer. He who is thoroughly converted will abandon every defiling habit and appetite. By total abstinence he will overcome his desire for health-destroying indulgences. {Ev 264.2}

All who study the life of Christ and practice His teachings will become like Christ. Their influence will be like His. They will reveal soundness of character. As they walk in the humble path of obedience, doing the will of God, they exert an influence that tells for the advancement of the cause of God and the healthful purity of His work. In these thoroughly converted souls the world is to have a witness to the sanctifying power of truth upon the human character. {Ev 269.2}

Talk of Christ, and when the heart is converted, everything that is out of harmony with the Word of God will drop off. It is only labor in vain to pick leaves off a living tree. The leaves will reappear. The ax must be laid at the root of the tree, and then the leaves will fall off, never to return. {Ev 272.1}

Direct the mind to Him who guides and controls all things. Christ will be the manna and the spiritual dew to these newly converted souls. In Him is no darkness at all. As men of spiritual understanding conduct Bible studies with them, telling them how to yield to the power of the Holy Spirit, that they may be fully and firmly established in the truth, the power of God will be revealed. {Ev 284.3}

The souls under conviction of the truth need to be visited and labored for. Sinners need a special work done for them, that they may be converted and baptized.--Manuscript 17, 1908. {Ev 306.4}

All who study the life of Christ and practice His teachings will become like Christ. Their influence will be like His. They will reveal soundness of character. As they walk in the humble path of obedience, doing the will of God, they exert an influence that tells for the advancement of the cause of God and the healthful purity of His work. In these thoroughly converted souls the world is to have a witness to the sanctifying power of truth upon the human character. {Ev 313.1}

In these thoroughly converted souls the world has a witness to the sanctifying power of truth upon the human character. Through them Christ makes known to the world His character and will. In the lives of God's children is revealed the blessedness of serving the Lord, and the opposite is seen in those who do not keep His commandments. The line of demarcation is distinct. All who obey God's commandments are kept by His mighty power amid the corrupting influence of the transgressors of His law. From the lowliest subject to the highest in positions of trust, they are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.--Manuscript 56, 1900. {Ev 316.1}

Ministers who labor in towns and cities to present the truth should not feel content, nor that their work is ended, until those who have accepted the theory of the truth realize indeed the effect of its sanctifying power, and are truly converted to God. God would be better pleased to have six truly converted to the truth as the result of their labors, than to have sixty make a nominal profession, and yet not be thoroughly converted. These ministers should devote less time to preaching sermons, and reserve a portion of their strength to visit and pray with those who are interested, giving them godly instruction, to the end that they may "present every man perfect in Christ Jesus." {Ev 320.1}

Ministers should not feel that their work is finished until those who have accepted the theory of the truth realize indeed the influence of its sanctifying power, and are truly converted. When the Word of God, as a sharp, two-edged sword, cuts its way to the heart and arouses the conscience, many suppose that this is enough; but the work is only begun. Good impressions have been made, but unless these impressions are deepened by careful, prayerful effort, Satan will counteract them. Let not the laborers rest content with what has been done. The plowshare of truth must go deeper, and this it will surely do if thorough efforts are made to direct the thoughts and establish the convictions of those who are studying the truth. {Ev 321.2}

Too often the work is left in an unfinished state, and in many such cases it amounts to nothing. Sometimes, after a company of people has accepted the truth, the minister thinks that he must immediately go to a new field; and sometimes, without proper investigation, he is authorized to go. This is wrong; he should finish the work begun; for in leaving it incomplete, more harm than good is done. No field is so unpromising as one that has been cultivated just enough to give the weeds a more luxuriant growth. By this method of labor many souls have been left to the buffeting of Satan and the opposition of members of other churches who have rejected the truth; and many are driven where they can never again be reached. A minister might better not engage in the work unless he can bind it off thoroughly. . . . {Ev 322.1}

Unless those who receive the truth are thoroughly converted, unless there is a radical change in the life and character, unless the soul is riveted to the eternal Rock, they will not endure the test of trial. After the minister leaves and the novelty has worn off, the truth loses its power to charm, and they exert no holier influence than before. {Ev 322.2}

God's work is not to be done in a bungling, slipshod manner. When a minister enters a field, he should work that field thoroughly. He should not be satisfied with his success until he can, through earnest labor and the blessing of Heaven, present to the Lord converts who have a true sense of their responsibility, and who will do their appointed work. If he has properly instructed those under his care, when he leaves for other fields of labor the work will not ravel out; it will be bound off so firmly as to be secure.--Gospel Workers, pp. 367-369. (1915) {Ev 322.3}

Duplicate deleted.

As you can see, Ellen White described the process of conversion in no uncertain terms. She doesn't leave it up to us to read between the lines. There is no guess work. True, genuine, thorough conversion results in "righteousness and true holiness" in accordance with the truth as it is in Jesus. People thus truly, genuinely, thoroughly converted are ready for translation. "When a man is truly converted, he becomes a son of God, a partaker of the divine nature. Not only is the heart renewed, but the intellect is strengthened and invigorated. {MYP 65.2} "Every truly converted soul will put on the whole armor of God, and will bravely face the unseen foe. God’s servants will realize the necessity of partaking of the divine nature. {OFC 267.2}

Young men and women who are truly converted will depart from all iniquity.... If they see the offensive character of sin, and hate it as the vile thing it is, and come to Jesus in contrition, purifying their souls by obedience to the truth, then they may be entrusted with some part in the work. {OHC 306.5}

Those who have been truly converted have been buried with Christ in the likeness of His death, and raised from the watery grave in the likeness of His resurrection, to walk in newness of life. By faithful obedience to the truth they are to make their calling and election sure (MS 57, 1900). {6BC 1115.2}

When men and women are truly converted, they will conscientiously regard the laws of life that God has established in their being, thus seeking to avoid physical, mental, and moral feebleness. Obedience to these laws must be made a matter of personal duty. We ourselves must suffer the ills of violated law. We must answer to God for our habits and practices. {CCh 215.7}

Some feel their need of the atonement, and with the recognition of this need, and the desire for a change of heart, a struggle begins. To renounce their own will, perhaps their chosen objects of affection or pursuit, requires an effort, at which many hesitate and falter and turn back. Yet this battle must be fought by every heart that is truly converted. We must war against temptations without and within. We must gain the victory over self, crucify the affections and lusts; and then begins the union of the soul with Christ. As the dry and apparently lifeless branch is grafted into the living tree, so may we become living branches of the True Vine. And the fruit which was borne by Christ will be borne by all His followers. After this union is formed, it can be preserved only by continual, earnest, painstaking effort. Christ exercises His power to preserve and guard this sacred tie, and the dependent, helpless sinner must act his part with untiring energy. {LHU 340.4}

Mike, I'll repeat my question: The conversion we are speaking about is repentance and renunciation of sin.
Of course Ellen White is not speaking about this when she says that Luther was partially converted. Or do you think she was?

Repentance, faith, and baptism are the requisite steps in conversion. Letter 174, 1909. {Ev 306.3}

Of course repentance must happen every day, but these are the initial steps.

Luther never did completely convert from the errors of Romanism. Consequently, he never completely converted to obeying everything Jesus commanded. He lived up to the light he believed. Thus, he will be in heaven.


Conversion means renovation. The sinner must enter into the renovating process for himself. He must come to Jesus. He must give up the wrong habits in which he has indulged. He must bring his unsubdued, unchristlike tendencies under the control of Christ, else he cannot be made a laborer together with God. Christ works, and the sinner works. The life of Christ becomes the life of the human agent. It is through the renewing power of the divine Spirit that man is fashioned into a perfect man in Christ. {LLM 103.5}


As you can see from all the passages I've posted above Ellen White speaks about true, genuine, thorough conversion. "The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices, they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. {LHU 123.4}

Can half-converted people be in heaven?


Is conversion = new birth or not? Was Luther born again or not?

Sounds like to me you've said a number of things.

Looks like you've created three ideas.
Sin.
Ignorant sin.
Ignorant sin that is not sin.

And you've also seem to have said that Spirit of Prophecy, which you've said also includes the Bible and which is the Testimony of Jesus, is somehow different than what you've just intended. If by such, you mean Ellen White and Ellen White only, then you've just said that she has added something which is not outlined by the Bible. Which is not what she has said, as she has said she would not be needed if people would read the Bible.

Wow. You can live up to the light you believe but not be completely converted? Does conversion entail something one doesn't believe?

Luther, and people like him, are not partially converted by choice. They are living up to the light Jesus revealed to them. Such are safe to save. They are in the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded. The Dark Ages makes it hard to learn the truth and to unlearn the lies. Rebirth happens during the process of converting. People experience true, genuine, thorough conversion when they finish learning how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. This is not to say they cannot continue learn more. We will continue to learn throughout eternity.

The passages I posted above make it abundantly clear true, genuine, thorough conversion (as opposed to half conversions) results in people living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Ellen White is very adamant about thoroughly indoctrinating people before consenting to baptize them and allowing them to join the SDA Church. She gives specific instruction on the best course to pursue, which doctrines to begin with and which ones to end with. Baptismal candidates must manifest the tell-tale signs of true, genuine, thorough conversion - they understand everything Jesus commanded, they are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded.

Jesus revealed present truth to Ellen White. But we cannot say it is a sin to live in harmony with truths revealed in the Bible. For example, Jesus permits a flesh food diet in the Bible, but through Ellen White He admonishes people to leave it off if their circumstances make it possible (plenty of vegetables, fruits, nuts, grains, legumes).


People are considered "converted" when they complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded. They experience rebirth during the process of converting.

We must reveal that we are converted, born again, before we can see heaven. {UL 257.3}

In order to serve God acceptably, we must be "born again." Our natural dispositions, which are in opposition to the Spirit of God, must be put away. We must be made new men and women in Christ Jesus. Our old, unrenewed lives must give place to a new life--a life full of love, of trust, of willing obedience. Think you that such a change is not necessary for entrance into the kingdom of God? Listen to the words of the Majesty of heaven: "Ye must be born again" (John 3:7). "Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 18:3). {YRP 24.2}

but when men are born again, when they are truly converted, old things pass away, and behold, all things become new. {ST, June 13, 1892 par. 6}

You need to be converted, to be born again, before you can cooperate with the Lord Jesus. {11MR 311.5}

Mike, what you said does not make any sense. Nobody can see heaven before being converted - born again. To be half-converted is not being converted at all, in the same way that being half-saved is not being saved at all. To what lengths you go to defend your views!

But Mike has been practicing this for years, and much seems based on Catholic doctrine.

Obey the law to reach conversion.
Reconcile with God but without conversion.

Etc.

And now charging Christ for witholding light from Luther.

Mike, you have a long history of fueling argument, debate, controversy, often based upon reams of misplaced copy & pasted EGW quotations, defying the plainest logic. Stirring the pot. You carried this on for years with Tom Ewall, commonly known as trolling.
________________________

Gordon, would you prefer it if I stopped posting here?

Coming from you, this hurts.

What would that solve Mike, and what matters my preference? I'm no Ernie Knolls Son of Thunder false prophet dictator.

Is not a pastor accountable for his teaching? Rosangela should be thanked for offering correction to these misconstrued notions of conversion. It appears she's trying to help, not hurt as you take it. If you insist on posting aberrant doctrine, misapplied SOP, and questions to provoke adventists, what reaction do you expect from conservative Adventists?

Wouldn't it be better to take responsibility - or if error's not evident, to study the Bible for confirmation?

_______________________

I'm sorry Mike, it wasn't my intention to hurt you. If I did, please accept my apologies.
I said this because the impression I get is that you make your mind about some point, and to defend that point you have to adjust your own whole system of beliefs. You came to believe that all sins are revealed to the person before his conversion; to defend this, you started to hold that a person cannot be converted without having been thoroughly indoctrinated; and to defend this you now are holding that the new birth is just part of conversion. Don't you think this is going too far?

I actually believe what I have been sharing here. I have believed it since 1995. I even wrote a book. I am not making it up as we go along. Nor am I adjusting, tweaking, changing things to accommodate the passages you post which, on the surface, appear to refute, derail, contradict the passages I post. I have been earnestly studying this for many, many years. I believe what I have been sharing with all my heart, which is why your comment hurt so much. Thank you for the apology. It is greatly appreciated.

Conversion is a long, patient, protracted process which ends in people learning and living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. They continue learning forever thereafter as they grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit. In the SOP sometimes words are used interchangeably, and sometimes they are used more specifically. Context makes all the difference. The word "converted," for example, is used in different ways. Sometimes it refers to people who are in the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded (Wycliffe, Luther, Miller, etc), and other times it refers to people who have completed the process (Peter, Paul, Matthew, etc).

Since rebirth is required to be saved, and knowing and living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded is not, it stands to reason there is a difference between people who initially experience rebirth and people who have completed the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded. People who die before they learn and live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded will be part of the first resurrection. People who die after learning and living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded will be a part of the special resurrection. And, to be translated alive when Jesus arrives, people must be living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. People like Wycliffe, Luther, and Miller cannot be translated alive because they have not learned how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Of course if Wycliffe, Luther, and Miller were living during the closing scenes of earth's history they would embrace the truth and be translated alive.

Gordon, thank you. Please go easy on me. I sincerely believe what I have been posting here. The passages I have been posting support it. People who complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. People who experience true, genuine, thorough conversion in God's appointed way do not ignorantly retain and practice some of the sins they cultivated prior to completing the long, patient, protracted process of conversion. People who are in the midst of converting are just as saved as people who have completed the process.

This passage makes it clear that people who are born again, converted (here the two words are used interchangeably) do not ignorantly retain some of the sinful habits they cultivated prior to experiencing rebirth. The following passages confirm this point:


The passages posted above paint a picture of what can only be described as - True, genuine, thorough conversion. No cultivated sinful habit is retained to be confessed and crucified later on.

Is it possible he is defending his book instead?

This does seem like a convoluted jumbled mess.

Ok, first you have conversion is a process, a process to complete.

Saved people may not have been completely converted.

Rebirth is only part of the process of conversion.

Only those who live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded have genuine, thorough conversion.

Ellen White's present truth on health laws are not in harmony with and/or not part of what Jesus commands.



Hmmmmm... I think Rosangela might have said something worthy of consideration.

Do you believe it is a sin to eat in accordance with the dietary laws in the Bible?

Kland, it is probably safe to say you disagree with the view I have been advocating. Simply disagreeing with me, however, isn't as constructive as you sharing what you believe. What do you believe? What is the truth about the long, patient, protracted process of conversion. Please share what you believe. Thank you.

Here's an example of how Ellen White uses the word "converted" in two different ways:


In the passage posted above she says the disciples, including Peter, were "truly converted". But in the passage posted below she says Peter was "converted" after he thrice denied Jesus:


Jesus referred to Peter's conversion as a future event. "But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." (Luke 22:32) So, as you can see, Ellen White used the word "converted" in two different ways.

Conversion is the result of thorough indoctrination. "Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee." (Psalm 51:13) "For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." (Matthew 13:15) The steps are 1) teach, 2) understand, and 3) converted.


In the passage posted above, she is addressing a leading brother and his wife. She first describes a true convert and then implores them to conform, to be thus converted. The following passage is the description of a truly converted person she described:

?
So, before Peter denied Christ he wasn't thoroughly indoctrinated, but he was thoroughly indoctrinated a few hours later?


What are the EGW passages which say that only thoroughly indoctrinated people can be converted?

Quick peek...


How about when Peter received the vision of the sheet of animals? Was he converted before he got the vision? This was well after he was brought before the Sanhedrin for examination.

But we are told that this vision gave Peter important doctrines that he didn't believe previously. He was not yet fully indoctrinated.

This vision conveyed to Peter both reproof and instruction. It revealed to him the purpose of God--that by the death of Christ the Gentiles should be made fellow heirs with the Jews to the blessings of salvation. As yet none of the disciples had preached the gospel to the Gentiles. In their minds the middle wall of partition, broken down by the death of Christ, still existed, and their labors had been confined to the Jews, for they had looked upon the Gentiles as excluded from the blessings of the gospel. Now the Lord was seeking to teach Peter the world-wide extent of the divine plan. {AA 135.3}

How carefully the Lord worked to overcome the prejudice against the Gentiles that had been so firmly fixed in Peter's mind by his Jewish training! By the vision of the sheet and its contents He sought to divest the apostle's mind of this prejudice and to teach the important truth that in heaven there is no respect of persons; that Jew and Gentile are alike precious in God's sight; that through Christ the heathen may be made partakers of the blessings and privileges of the gospel. {AA 136.3}

So, we saw that EGW could have had two different types of conversion in mind. (However, I believe it is much more likely that it was a quantitative difference, not qualitative; it was a deepening on his conversion, rather than a new kind of conversion.) Did this vision prompt a third type of conversion, where Peter was thoroughly indoctrinated?

And since we are thinking about this vision, we remember that Cornelius was baptized after an abbreviated sermon from Peter. Was Cornelius baptized while unconverted? Or was he thoroughly indoctrinated after Peter's 2-minute sermon?

We have seen several inspired texts that tell us converted people can be ignorant of some very fundamental truths, such as the Sabbath, the universal reach of Christ's sacrifice and grace, the murderous effects of poor health habits.

I can see how learning new things from God can be considered conversion - changing from error to truth. In that sense, we should be experiencing continual conversion.

However, this is not the conversion that is most critical at this time. You have admitted that Luther, who was not fully indoctrinated (though it is hard to imagine that in all his Bible studies, he never ran across any verse that specifies the seventh day as God's Sabbath), will be in heaven. Obviously, thorough indoctrination, though helpful and very nice, is not a requirement for eternal life.

But we would be foolish to say that "conversion" is not a requirement for eternal life. Hence, in answer to the question, "What must I do to gain eternal life?" there is a conversion that is required, and a conversion that is optional. You admit that your "conversion is the result of thorough indoctrination" is optional. The conversion that we are trying to explain to you is the kind that is required. This is the conversion that we need to focus our greatest efforts upon.

I have met many who are thoroughly indoctrinated. And if you are not quite as indoctrinated as they are, they will persecute you with no mercy. They need to experience the important conversion.

Auf wiedersehen once again (for now)...

I believe it is a sin not to eat in accordance to what Jesus commands.



If I said people are not truly converted until they are completely converted, that it is a long process, and we will not finish it on this earth, but some people have been converted, and some people will be saved who are not converted, but we must be truly converted to be saved, would you really know what I believe?

So I don't understand what you believe? Maybe you could start out with defining the word, "conversion". Your definition, seems to be different than what the others have.

That's the point. Ellen White uses the word "converted" in different ways. Many, many times throughout the SOP she begs seasoned members and leaders to experience thorough conversion. Otherwise, she warns them, they are in a lost state and will not go to heaven.

Peter was in the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded. In one sense of the word, therefore, he was "converted". However, he completed the process of converting on the Day of Pentecost when he was baptized by the Holy Spirit. "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Amen! I agree. Beginning the process of conversion is required for salvation. Thorough indoctrination, however, is not. The process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded takes time, especially when deeply laid lies have been innocently, ignorantly believed (Peter, Luther, Miller, etc). In this day and age of light and truth Jesus has commissioned SDA members and leaders to enlighten everyone everywhere. A thorough indoctrination is required to get baptized and join the church. True, genuine, thorough conversion is the result of learning how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded.

So true.

Did Jesus command us not to eat in accordance with the dietary laws in the Bible?


Please share what you believe is the truth about rebirth and conversion.

1. “We must gain the victory over self, crucify the affections and lusts; and then begins the union of the soul with Christ.” (5T 47)

2. “Christ will come into the heart and abide there if you will but cleanse the soul temple of every defilement.” (ST 11-30-1888)

3. “The heart must be emptied of every defilement, and cleansed for the indwelling of the Spirit.” (FLB 333)

4. “We must empty the soul temple of every defilement, and let the Spirit of God take full possession of the heart, that the character may be transformed.” (RH 4-26-1892)

5. “The renewed heart will have no plants of selfishness to cultivate.” (RH 5-5-1896)

6. “He who abides in Christ, and has Christ abiding in his heart by faith, cannot retain the same unlovely traits of character as were made manifest in his life before he had a connection with Christ.” (ST 8-21-1893)

7. “If we are doers of the word of God, we shall understand that we cannot retain any sinful habit, or indulge in any crooked or guileful way.” (ST 12-25-1893)

8. “If we would become Christians, we cannot retain our natural habits, and hold fast to the weakness of our character that dishonors our Saviour.” (YI 9-14-1893)

9. “The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on ‘kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering.’” (SD 300)

10. “When we are born from above, the same mind will be in us that was in Jesus, the mind that led Him to humble Himself that we might be saved.” (DA 330)

11. “The sinful nature is to be kept under the control of the Spirit of God.” (16 SpTB 18)

12. “He did not leave us to retain our defects and deformities of character, or to serve Him as best we could in the corruption of our sinful nature.” (RH 3-18-1902)

13. “Human nature is vile, and man’s character must be changed before it can harmonize with the pure and holy in God’s immortal kingdom. This transformation is the new birth. If man by faith takes hold of the divine love of God, he becomes a new creature through Christ Jesus. The world is overcome, human nature is subdued, and Satan is vanquished.” (2SP 133)

14. “It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ’s nature, a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression.” (UL 18)

15. “If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in the heart, our feelings, our thoughts, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God. The sanctified heart is in harmony with the precepts of God’s law.” (AA 563)

16. “Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ.” (RH 4-12-1892)

17. “The evils of fashionable society have a tendency to corrupt, but every true follower of Christ, every one who has ‘this hope in him, purifieth himself, even as He is pure,’ so that not a taint of defilement will be found in his thoughts, or upon his lips, in his heart, or in his character.” (16 SpTB 5)

In light of the 17 passages posted above, what point in the long, patient, protracted process of conversion is Ellen White describing - 1) Beginning, 2) Middle, or 3) End?

My choice is 1) Beginning.

When the Spirit of God controls mind and heart, the converted soul breaks forth into a new song; for he realizes that in his experience the promise of God has been fulfilled, that his transgression has been forgiven, his sin covered. He has exercised repentance toward God for the violation of the divine law, and faith toward Christ, who died for man's justification. "Being justified by faith," he has "peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1. {AA 476.2}

But because this experience is his, the Christian is not therefore to fold his hands, content with that which has been accomplished for him. He who has determined to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Each day he must renew his consecration, each day do battle with evil. Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ's strength for victory. {AA 476.3}

"Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ's strength for victory." Please note that she doesn't say converted people will discover certain of their cultivated habits are sinful, that they have been innocently, ignorantly cultivating sinful habits. This point is important.

EGW says Peter was converted before Pentecost (probably a few hours after his denial of Christ):

In the answers that Peter gave to the Lord's thrice-repeated question, a different spirit is manifested from what we find in the boastful assurances before the crucifixion of Christ. Peter was a converted man, and showed in his life that transforming grace had taken possession of his heart. {RH, April 7, 1891 par. 11}

Like Arnold, I believe that EGW is referring to a deepening on his conversion, rather than a new kind of conversion. But EGW said that nobody will see heaven before he/she is converted. Now, at which of his "conversions" could Peter go to heaven?

She also says he was "truly converted" the day Jesus said, "Follow me."


Again, her use of the word "converted" varies depending on the context. I like Arnold's idea of conversion being something that deepens. Repentance is something that deepens, so why not conversion! I believe people who begin the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded are in a saved state. If they should die before they completely convert they will come up in the first resurrection. Peter was probably in a saved state before he ever laid eyes on Jesus. No doubt he was serving God sincerely, with all his heart.

I also believe the 17 passages posted above describe people who experience rebirth and begin the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded.

Rebirth is required to enter heaven. Completely converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded is not. This distinction demonstrates the difference between rebirth and conversion. Nevertheless, there are times when Ellen White uses the two words interchangeably. Context is important.

Your question seems awkward, "command us not to eat". Could you re-word it?

Rebirth refers to the first time you are truly converted. But Ellen White is clear that we should experience conversion every day.

Is there conflict between what is written in the Bible and what is written in the SOP? Does the Bible allow what the SOP disallows? Is it a sin to eat meat in accordance with the Bible?

Amen! Do you make a distinction between beginning the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded and completing the process? If so, which Bible and SOP passages do you use?

No there isn't. Do you think there is? Do you think the Bible is not the spirit of prophecy? The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Thus it is with the truly righteous man. He is unconscious of his goodness and piety. Religious principle has become the spring of his life and conduct, and it is just as natural for him to bear the fruits of the Spirit as for the fig tree to bear figs or for the rosebush to yield roses. His nature is so thoroughly imbued with love for God and his fellow men that he works the works of Christ with a willing heart. SL 13.1

Those who are really seeking to perfect Christian character will never indulge in the thought that they are sinless. {RH, January 18, 1881 par. 2}

True sanctification is an entire conformity to the will of God. Rebellious thoughts and feelings are overcome, and the voice of Jesus awakens a new life, which pervades the entire being. {RH, January 18, 1881 par. 7}

True sanctification is a daily work, continuing as long as life shall last. Those who are battling with daily temptations, overcoming their own natural tendencies, and seeking for holiness of heart and life, make no boastful claims of holiness. They are hungering and thirsting for righteousness. Sin appears to them exceedingly sinful. {RH, January 18, 1881 par. 9}

Self-denial, self-sacrifice, benevolence, kindness, love, patience, fortitude, and Christian trust are the daily fruits borne by those who are truly connected with God. {RH, January 18, 1881 par. 12}

Thus it is with the truly righteous man. He is unconscious of his goodness and piety. Religious principle has become the spring of his life and conduct, and it is just as natural for him to bear the fruits of the Spirit as for the fig-tree to bear figs, or for the rose-bush to yield rose. His nature is so thoroughly imbued with love for God and his fellow-men that he works the works of Christ with a willing heart. {RH, January 18, 1881 par. 15}

Ellen White writes eloquently about truly converted, genuinely sanctified people. She freely writes about them. But therein lies a dichotomy. She never described herself in such terms. I have no problem applying to her what she writes about converted, sanctified people; but she never does. Neither should we.

I did not read all this thread but did read the Biblical texts and comments related to it that was brought in this discussion. Very few -- only two posts quoting scriptures.

To find any truth of any matter we need to go to the Law(Torah) and see what the Lord has define in the plan of salvation and has establish as a foundation of truth. This is what we need to hear/obey, meditate, compare, test against, and recognize that this is the Lord’s heart and ways at work in man and world events throughout history.

Recently, I read a very good post by Myron on Adventist Online pertaining to this discussion. He was answering a sister's struggle with her husband taking up smoking shortly after baptism and being fully indoctrinated prior. Myron basically addresses conversion with the 3 baptisms(justification, sanctification, and becoming perfect) according to the TYPE shown in the Laws of Moses.

A proper understanding of sanctification by which is the process how the Lord removes sin from us... is what we fail to grab and apply in our own struggles.

Here's how Joyce formulated her question on AO The following is Myron's reply. I have added the Titles to ease up the reading and for quick references.
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I wrote a response to this on the first day you posted it but did not post that response because it was too negative. I'll try again because there are some things that are just too important to this and do not appear to have been addressed.

Sanctification is a Process
First off, sanctification is a process, and that process will last your entire life in this corrupt flesh. You do not get fully sanctified, then be baptized as a witness to that sanctification and you do not come up out of the water perfected either. The idea that we can be perfect in this life comes from taking certain statements out of context from the writings of Paul, James and John. All three make some mention of the fact that it is impossible for the spirit of God within us to sin. We are to identify with that spirit because once we have accepted Jesus into our lives that is who we are; we are no longer the man of sin. However, that man of sin is still within us, and at first is much stronger than the spirit which is within us, which is born in us as an infant, if we believe the types God has given us. Furthermore, Paul tells us in Galatians 4 that this spiritual child is under the supervision of the soulish servants of God until such time as it is mature enough to inherit. So in a sense, the man of sin is very much in charge of us even after we have been converted.

A short digression is necessary here because of the way we are taught these things. Much tradition of men is in place in our doctrines, and these traditions cause us a great deal of difficulty. The Bible teaches that we are three part beings, body, soul and spirit. Spirit and soul are NOT the same thing as so many Christians believe, and the Bible is extremely clear about this. We are not truly alive unless all three parts are present in us, and at our physical birth we do not really possess the spirit of God, at least, not in its fullness. We gain a greater measure of this spirit when we are born again, and later at other major steps in our life, but until we are fully mature "sons" of God when the feast of Tabernacles is fulfilled in us (see 2 Corinthians 5) we may be alive spiritually, but we do not yet have the abundant life that Jesus speaks of.

3 Levels of Baptism:
There are three levels of baptism, illustrated by the three major feasts of Israel, as well as other symbols God gave us. Two of the three are discussed at length in scripture, the third is not discussed in as much detail, but it is there as well.

#1 Baptism of John = Passover = Unleavened bread = Justification = Circumcision of the Heart = Infant
The first is called the baptism of John in the New Testament. It is also called the baptism of repentance in the New Testament. It is illustrated in the feast days by Passover. The main lesson of Passover is justification by faith in the blood of the lamb. At this time we are born again, and receive a very low level anointing of the Holy Spirit, but many of the other biblical symbols for this show that the spirit does not actually indwell us at this time. That comes later, and this later anointing was the main emphasis of teaching in the New Testament.

The circumcision ceremony on the eighth day after birth is closely related to Passover since circumcision was the symbol showing the son was justified. It is the first of the sonship ceremonies. Since the Christian must be circumcised in his heart all Christians go through this spiritual process when they are born again, but the son being circumcised is an infant spiritually, no matter his physical age. This is part of the importance of this ceremony being done on the eighth day, even if that is the Sabbath day. There was no higher priority.

#2 Baptism of Holy Spirit = Pentecost = Leaven bread = Hearing God voice for ourself = process Laws written on our Hearts = Child
The second level of baptism is illustrated by the day of Pentecost (the Feast of Weeks). In the New Testament it is called the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It commemorates the day God came down to speak to Israel at Sinai. It is also illustrated by the Bar Mitzvah (son of the law) ceremony. It is at this point that the Holy Spirit comes down as a tongue of fire and indwells us, but at this time we only receive a down-payment of the spirit, not its fullness. It is at this point where we begin to hear God's voice, and we will continue to hear it if we obey it. At Sinai Israel refused to hear and ran from God telling Moses to go up the mountain to hear God's voice and come tell them what God said. So the ten commandments they did hear were written on the stone of their hearts and placed inside the ark, but the rest of the law, which was written on flesh, remained outside their hearts (the ark), and only a very few received the heart of flesh before Pentecost was fulfilled in 33 AD. They still had only the heart of stone when God commented on this through the prophet Ezekiel (Ezekiel 11 and 36)

By hearing God's voice and obeying the word that is heard the law is written on your heart and the heart of stone is removed and replaced with a heart of flesh. This is the work of Sanctification.

#3 Baptism of the Fullness of the Holy Spirit = Feast of Tabernacle = Father reveals His chosen Sons and gives them authority = Receiving our inheritance
The third baptism is seen with Jesus baptism. It is illustrated by the Feast of Tabernacles, the dedication of the priests and the adoption ceremony at which the father declares publicly that his son is now fully mature and has the full authority to do anything in his fathers name because he knows his father and his father' business so well that he would not do anything that his father would not do. Jesus put it this way, "I only do that which I see my father do and say that which I hear my father say." When the Father gave Jesus the signet of his power he put it this way, "This is my beloved son in whom I am very pleased." Later, on the mount of transfiguration, God repeated this ceremony saying, "This is my beloved son; obey him."

The feast of Tabernacles prophesies of receiving the inheritance, the glorified body, as well as the revealing of the sons of light. The dedication of the priests prophesies of the revealing of the sons of light and of the pouring of the fullness of the Holy Spirit over them (having a half gallon or more oil poured over their heads.) Only Jesus has received this level of baptism so far. The rest of us await this when the feast of Tabernacles is fulfilled at or after the second coming.

1st and 2nd Baptism does not remove the Mortal Body
One other side issue that is important to understand in this matter is the source of sin. There is bad translating in Romans and it makes many things harder to understand. English translations of Romans 5:12 tell us that we will all die because we have sinned. This is not what Paul actually said, and the rest of the discussion in this passages point out that error. Paul has told us that because of Adam's sin we all have inherited mortality. We are all born mortal. In verse 12 what Paul really says is because we are mortal therefore we sin.

Baptism does not take the mortal body away, at least, not the first two levels of baptism, therefore, we cannot expect to be sinless after baptism. No matter how much we fight the Old Man of Sin, he will always be connected to this body and will seek to be its ruler. Because the new man of the spirit is not born fully mature he is not able to rule the body at first against the strength of the old man of sin. Thus we will always be fighting our sinful nature and though our spiritual nature will gain in strength and keep us from sinning more and more often, until we die or are changed, we will fall prey to the flesh.

Sanctification is a Learning Process
The second point is that Sanctification is a learning process. The more you know about how people learn the more effective your witness will be in these matters, but you can still work adequately without extensive training in educational theory. Another poster spoke at about rehabilitation from addiction. This is also a learning process; this is why talk therapy is considered such an important part of any rehabilitative process. But there is a difference between the two approaches. Basic education is about going from a state of general ignorance to a state of knowledge; in most cases the person with an addiction has one or more issues that are best described as lies which must be unlearned before we can learn the truth and gain a more abundant life. Either way, we are going from a lack of knowledge about God and his creation to a fuller knowledge of the truth, and the truth sets us free.

To live by every Word of G-d
In this regard, it becomes very important to understand biblical teaching regarding Sanctification, and that is something Christianity has largely rejected. It is also important to understand the meaning of the phrase "every word which proceeds from the mouth of God." This is not limited to the written word, which is the bread that is to be a part of every meal. The first recorded word God spoke is light, yet Isaiah 45:7 tells us that the darkness we see already there in Genesis 1 was also created by God, so light was not actually the first word he spoke.

We are to live by every word God speaks, not simply the words he spoke in the past or limited further, those he had the prophets write down. All of creation is the word of God and is to be studied as such. Science studies a huge portion of God's word that the church ignores or, in many cases, actively denies. Science does not always properly study creation, but they do have a greater understanding of this truth than the church does much of the time, so this portion of God's word must be studied as well when we look for answers to the matters God brings before us during our sanctification. However, for our purposes here I will look at biblical teaching, not science. I simply point out science because it will be included in the path to overcoming many addictions, including the addiction to nicotine.

Pentecost and the Bronze Serpent = Sin needs to be EXAMINE so to be removed from us
There are a number of symbols for sanctification in scripture, and they shed quite a bit of light on the process if we study them and understand them. The main ones I wish to look at are Pentecost and the bronze serpent. In different ways these both show us the same thing.

The primary sacrifice on the day of Pentecost is not the ram; it is the two loaves of Leavened Bread. Pentecost is the First Fruits offering of the wheat harvest, so the bread is the primary sacrifice. This is the only sacrifice in which leaven in allowed, and in this one it is required. That alone makes this ceremony strange and should tell us that it deserves special study. God does not make exceptions lightly. We already know that leaven represents sin, which is why it was banned from all offerings except this one. In this one the leaven had first been exposed to the fire and killed before the offering was acceptable to God.

The fire represents God’s law and God’s character. There are a number of texts that support this symbolism and they are easy enough to find that I will only list a few. First, in Deuteronomy 4 and 32 Moses makes reference to the fire being God’s law. Deuteronomy 4 makes numerous reference to this saying God was in the fire, God spoke from the fire, that his word comes out of the fire and even saying he is the fire. Deuteronomy 32 says his law is fiery. Strangely enough, considering how our theologians view the law, it is interesting that this verse tells us God is holding his fiery law in his right hand. Traditionally we symbolize blessings as coming from the right hand, and cursing or other negative judgments coming from God’s left hand. Thus the fiery law is the source of his blessings.

In Jeremiah 5 God tells Jeremiah that his word in Jeremiah’s mouth will be a fire. In Jeremiah 23 he once again tells us that his word (law) is a fire. And years earlier, the angel purified the words of Isaiah making him a suitable vessel to be a prophet of God by placing a coal from the altar in his mouth. God’s word is his fire as well as his sword, and it refines us, burning away the flesh, cutting the bone from the marrow, leaving the good and solid things of the spirit and killing and burning up the flesh, wood, hay and straw – the old man of sin.

So on the day of Pentecost, leaven is reintroduced to the camp, but it is dead leaven. The people had to remove all leaven from the camp for the seven days of the feast of unleavened bread. The rabbis tell us the purpose of the unleavened bread is the same as if you were eating soup and crackers because you have an upset stomach. It is healing. But once the digestive system is healed we start eating more substantial foods again. And on the day of Pentecost we begin eating leavened bread, but it is bread that has been baked, killing the leaven, not dough with live leaven still in it. This is very significant.

Leaven (sin) becomes an important part of our spiritual food at this point, but that does not mean we are to actively sin. Instead we examine the sins of our past and the sins in other people’s lives, not to glorify it, but to discover why sin is so exceedingly sinful. Not only does eating leavened bread show us this examination of sin, but the bronze serpent shows this as well. Pentecost is about removing sin from us; the bronze serpent is about healing us from the effects of the sin. In both cases we must examine the thing that makes us sick. If we do not we will not get well.

Yes we are told in the Bible that the serpent represents Jesus. These are Jesus own words. This is because it is Jesus and him only that can remove sin from our lives, and him only who can heal us from the effects of sin. But we find this healing by following the process he teaches. With the serpent the process was Moses made a representation of the serpent that was biting the people and they were then required to look upon it (examine it) in order to be healed. It is here where so many fail.

Removing all Leaven(sin) at Passover and Covering our Sins
We know well the admonition to remove all leaven from the camp for Passover (justification.) The problem is we attempt to bury our past sins (atonement is a covering, and it is necessary that they be covered at first.) However, at some time we have to actually start dealing with the sins and remove them from our lives. That we fail to do so is a problem for us. Those covered over sins (or other issues from childhood) fester and cause greater problems if they are not brought out into the light and properly dealt with.

Doctrine of G-d Forgetting our sins : Cognitive or Legal
There is a big problem with Christian doctrine concerning God forgetting our sins. We consider this to be a cognitive issue, when it is actually a legal issue. As soon as we are justified God forgets our sins and will never hold them against us again, but this is a legal matter, not a cognitive matter. God does not forget our sins cognitively, and as part of the sanctification process will eventually bring every one of them up before us again. Perhaps he does not bring up every individual act, but he does show us the state of our mind. If we have not truly repented of something that is brought out from under the covering and set before us. Yet even if we have truly repented, those past issues must also come out into the light once we are healthy enough to deal with them. If they are not the sins are not actually removed from us.

This is the kind of thing that talk therapy deals with on a regular basis and, in fact, is the primary purpose of talk therapy. Not all the sins dealt with in this manner will be our own sins; they will often be the sins of others against us, sins we thought were forgiven long ago. Yet even these need to be dealt with in the proper manner. If sin, whether our own or those of others against us, are simply covered over they will eventually cause problems at some point in the future. These problems often manifest themselves as some form of addiction that we are unable to overcome until the root problems are discovered and dealt with appropriately. Thus there is a need to study the temple rituals and the stories that also illustrate the proper means of dealing with sin, and to study them through New Covenant eyes in order to see the processes that are applicable to us today and not simply rituals of killing animals and putting blood here or there in the temple. Let’s not forget that we are that temple, the altar is our hearts and the blood is the soul of Jesus.

It is not my intention to do a deep study of these things here; this post is already very long. However, I can be of assistance if you wish to do a general study of this type of thing later. I do not intend to tell you specifically how to deal with your husband’s problems because he would need to be directly involved in such a study. But there are general things you should know and can teach your husband. They will also help you understand your obligations to him in this matter, the first if which is don’t nag, which others have already addressed. The second is to hold him responsible for his behavior, which when done in a fleshly manner ends up involving a considerable amount of nagging. I would suggest you study Ezekiel 3 and 33 for more specific counsel on how to balance these requirements.

Paul’s thorn and Grace
There is one more thing I wish to point out before closing this. Paul gives us some very specific instruction that God gave him regarding these things. In 2 Corinthians 12 he tells us of his own struggle with some on-going sin in his life. Most Christians refuse to admit that Paul had such struggles, and since Paul did not name the specific sin he was struggling with most people try to find other things that may have been this thorn in the side he had to struggle with, very often naming a specific person that gave him much difficulty for a period of time. This misses the point of his discussion completely and also points out the poor level of understanding of specific legal terminology God uses in scripture. Paul was setting out a general principle, and probably if we knew the full details of his life we would be able to identify a great number of specific thorns in his side, no matter how we define it.

The term grace speaks of favor and when used in a legal/moral context refers to a state of not being under penalty for sin. It does not necessarily mean what the church teaches, and church teaching misses a great deal of what this term does mean. Both the Hebrew and Greek terms translated grace mean favor, and that is a very common translation for those words in scripture. So a simple definition of grace is favor. A simple definition of when that favor is granted is not quite so easy. Of course, it is granted when there never has been any sin, but it is also granted when the full penalty of sin has been paid.

Debt and Liabilities Laws
Here we must get into God’s equivalent of criminal law which is his debt and liability laws. All sins are counted as debt, so in God’s system it does not matter if you borrowed money and can’t pay it back or if you stole the money. There is no separate means of handling the problem if it is defined (by man) as a civil problem or a criminal problem. The means of dealing with the problem is exactly the same and involves monetizing the value of the damage done and repaying double. This is not a hard and fast rule since there are a few sins that require a death penalty where a person cannot repay a debt double. If I kill you I cannot restore two lives to you; if I kidnap you I have stolen your life, and once again, though I can restore you to your family, I cannot restore a second one of you to them. If I commit adultery with someone’s wife, I cannot restore double her love to her husband. These are matters which man cannot adjudicate so God tells us to delay adjudication of them to the great white throne judgment where He will judge the most difficult matters himself. In addition to these difficult things there are also some sins that require four and five times the restitution of what has been taken, and admission of guilt always brings a minimum factor of mercy into the matter. That minimum factor of mercy means the restitution is reduced from 200% to 120% of what was taken.

Redeemer and Payment of the Debt
Payment for this debt is due at the time of adjudication. If the debtor is not able to repay at that time his property is confiscated and sold off. If that is not enough to repay the debt he and his family are sold into bond servitude. The bond is created for the value of the remaining debt and the bond is then auctioned off. The bond defines the amount of time you must work for the person who has purchased the bond. The limiting factor here is the Jubilee. We will not discuss that much at this point. The person who bought your bond is the redeemer. You must work for your redeemer until the bond is paid off or the year of Jubilee, whichever comes first.

Redeemer’s Right to be the Victim and cannot extend Grace to you
The redeemer in this case is not necessarily a kinsman. A kinsman redeemer is more likely to allow you to remain on your own property and work that property for him. More importantly, the kinsman is also more likely to forgive a portion or all of your debt; most definitely you can expect better treatment from a kinsman than from someone who has redeemed you for his own profit. The redeemer is simply the person who bought your debt. At this point the victim is paid, and since he has been paid must now forgive you and extend his grace to you. The redeemer has bought the right to be the victim and is the only person who is not allowed to extend his grace to you. Anyone else holding you responsible for this sin is sinning against you.

Under the Law and Under Grace and Forgiveness
During the time you are working off this bond you are considered to be under the (penalty) of the law. This is what under the law means. Only your victim (or your redeemer) can keep you under the law. In your relationships to everyone else you are supposed to be under grace since you have not given them cause against you. If they refuse to grant you their grace they are sinning against you as I said above. God, being the creator of all things owns all things. By this definition any sin against any part of his creation is a sin against him. This is why all our sins are sins against God regardless of who or what else may be a victim of that sin. This is also why he is able to forgive all our sins, even when there are other victims, but by becoming our redeemer as well, he is given the right by repaying our victims, and by becoming our kinsman-redeemer he increases his obligation to forgive.

First Types of Forgiveness : Forbearance = Sabbath days and Years
There are multiple types of forgiveness seen in the Bible. The most common is what we would call forbearance. This is the type of forgiveness seen in the Sabbath days and years. At those times we are forgiven the need to work to repay our debts. The time is ours to spend with God and working for the benefit of others. The highest level of Sabbath is the Jubilee. In that Sabbath all debts are forgiven in their entirety. At the end of the Sabbath day or Sabbath year the bondservant is to return to his master and go back to working off his debt. In the Jubilee, the bondservant is set free permanently, and returns to his own inheritance. This is the ultimate goal of the Sabbath and sets the type apart from the reality. Since the reality is not seen in the Sabbath day the day cannot be the antitype as SDA’s wish to teach. It remains a very important type that sets us free for one day out of every seven to keep our eyes on the ultimate goal of the Sabbath rest.

Separating forbearance from forgiveness (using man’s definitions) there are two primary types of forgiveness found in the bible. The first is the forgiveness which must be given when a debt has been paid in full. Once a debt is paid in full it is as if the debtor has never had a debt and even the victim-redeemer must grant him grace. To fail to do so would be a theft from him. So the sinner is no longer under the law and is now under grace, and it is as if he has never sinned.

Second Type of Forgiveness: Mercy
The second type of forgiveness also defines mercy. In this forgiveness the debt is forgiven without repayment, or can be forgiven in part without repayment. This is mercy. God requires that there be no judgment without mercy, but he also requires that no mercy be given to the unmerciful. This is the meaning behind the parable in Matthew 18 in which the king first forgave, then rescinded the forgiveness of the servant owing 10,000 talents. Because that servant refused to be merciful the mercy already granted to him was revoked. This principle adds emphasis to my earlier statement that when God forgets our sins it is a legal matter, not a cognitive matter. If God had cognitively forgotten the debt of this servant he would not have been able to reinstate that debt when the servant proved himself unmerciful. The debt had been forgotten, and the servant was under grace as if he had never owed a debt; but that debt was then reinstated, showing there was still a record of it in some way.

Grace is not Forgiveness – Back to Paul’s Thorn
Both kinds of forgiveness return us to a state of being under grace and we are treated as if we had never sinned, so we see that grace though grace is not forgiveness because it is something more, it is like forgiveness where there has been. So let’s look at Paul’s statement in light of this. Paul asked God three times to remove this thorn from his side. God’s answer was, “My grace is sufficient.” There would have been no need for God’s grace if this thorn in Paul’s side were some person who was tormenting him in whatever way. The grace was necessary because Paul was struggling with a sin.

At this point we get into what most people here will call opinion since it is not easily proven with scripture and I don’t know how. But I have seen this played out in my own life and in the lives of others. Science has also tended to agree with much of this, but some has not been studied scientifically so even there I am on shaky ground.

Temptations not removed until we Pass the Test in Learning -- Examining Sin without succumbing
As I said before, most Christian teaching in these matters has considerable trouble moving beyond the Feast of Unleavened Bread and into Pentecost. We have no trouble telling everyone to just say no to sin, but once they are healed enough to examine the problem without succumbing to it we still refuse to tell them to examine the sin and learn from it. I have found that when this happens a relapse is much more likely because God does want us doing this detailed examination of our sins. It is the only way to learn from them. For most people their deep bible study when faced with temptation is an effort to shift the attention away from that test, not to examine scripture regarding what it has to say about that area in which we are being tested (also translated tempted).

The temptation is not taken away until we have passed the test. Ignoring the material is not how we pass a test. In Hosea 4:6 God says, “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.” Because they refuse to gain this knowledge God keeps the test before them until they do. The longer the test remains with them the more likely they are to succumb to the sin. In my opinion this is what was happening with Paul. Whether he actually succumbed or not is not the point, but since God’s grace was necessary it is apparent that he did succumb from time to time just as your husband does. But he was not learning the lesson or had still more to learn about that area, so God refused to remove the temptation.

It becomes very easy to justify all of our sins in this way. I know this all too well, and yes, I am guilty. We are not supposed to succumb to the temptations. It is possible to learn the lesson by observing the sin in others or by observing our own past sins. But I have seen in my own life and in the lives of others, the return of sins that seemed to have been overcome, and I have seen that the reason was because I had to study my relationship with God in light of the area being tested. Only when there is adequate understanding, and the eradication of many of the lies the church has taught us since the beginning are those temptations once again removed from me. And it is never necessary that I succumb to the temptation. When it happens that is my own weakness, or worse, refusal to be obedient.

Finally there is the matter of what we teachers call the learning spiral. We can never learn everything about a subject all at once. We must learn a portion, then be given time to assimilate the knowledge that we are given. A math teacher will teach a young child addition before he teaches anything else, and counting had to be learned before that. There is a sequence that must be followed. The basics must be learned first or you are wasting your time trying to teach the more advanced knowledge. Additionally, if the child has been taught that 2+2=3, and has not been taught to verify his results by counting for himself, there will be numerous other problems in his learning until he has unlearned this knowledge and been taught the correct value of 2+2.

The learning spiral, which God also uses, means we will visit the same material many times over, but that there will be differences and greater revelation each time we visit it. Subtraction is just addition in reverse. Multiplication is just an advanced form of addition, and division is just the reverse of multiplication. We simply keep adding to the tools in our pouch and the more advanced tools greatly simplify our tasks.

Understanding the Cause of our Sins with Scripture
Applying this to your husband’s smoking may not be easy. A major problem with medicine, mental health treatment and spirituality is our preference to treat symptoms rather than actual causes of problems. Smoking is a symptom, as is any other form of substance abuse including over eating. The trick is to discover the cause and study what God has to teach us regarding that cause in all his words, not just in scripture, although it is dangerous to ignore scripture when doing this study.

During Struggles G-d’s Grace is sufficient
All this takes time, and during that time the temptation may well stay before you and seem overwhelming. The weakness of the flesh guarantees that we will sometimes give in to these temptations even though God always provides the means of escape with them. That means is often not what we think it is, and always takes some work to discover. So while we struggle with this temptation God’s grace is sufficient, and you need to remember this at all times when dealing with your husband’s difficulties. If you do not, you will succumb to the temptation to nag him, and then you become a stumbling block to his efforts, not a helpmeet at his side. You do not want to be counterproductive in this way.

Pray[Meditate] Without Ceasing
Good luck and continue in prayer. But remember, prayer involves so much more than the church teaches us. Paul told us to pray without ceasing. The Old Testament included this instruction as well but there a different term was used – meditation.

Deuteronomy 6 4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.

Joshua 1 6 “Be strong and courageous, because you will lead these people to inherit the land I swore to their forefathers to give them. 7 Be strong and very courageous. Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, that you may be successful wherever you go. 8 Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful. 9 Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go.”

Too bad this thread got sidelined.

I haven't finished reading the post, but this one jumped out at me.

Though I doubt that Paul had no sin, I also doubt that his thorn was sin. He said, "Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong." I doubt he would boast or take pleasure in sin.

I am reminded of another statement from Paul, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid!"

Let me first make it clear that I believe in our health message and I am a vegetarian, and therefore I have a problem with using my eating conviction and practice as an issue in a reference to conversion.

It is my firm belief that the health message is essential for the well being of God's people in these days, and also an aid in resisting many temptations, but if I use this item as being a part of my conversion I see this as a breach in the messages given both by Paul and Ellen White about justification by faith.

Many of the 17 quotations given above tell me that there is no distinguishing mark where I can clap myself on the shoulder because I have an assurance that my conversion is genuine. My assurance is that Christ is perfect and grants me His righteousness. I can destroy this through lack of faith. Eating meat could be one of the weaknesses which would break my relationship with Christ, but if I make this a distinguishing mark I could easily miss the point that there could be a thousand issues which could just as well break that relationship.

I'm glad you read that long post. I found it quite valuable to understand deeper the meaning of Pentecost and how the Lord removes the sins from us. It was something I needed to meditate upon as I don't want to bury my sins but really want them completly removed.

This explains why sins reoccure in many Christians as the work to examine them and learn from them is not done. Therefore the Lord will not remove the temptation or the sin. The person is converted but they do not understand how the Lord's works to heal them fully.


What do you think the torn was?

To be honest I haven't studied this in dept. What comes to me is that Paul talks about the struggle within man in Rom 7. I do know from studies that Jesus places a seed(His Spirit) in us. And there is such things as the struggle between the "old man" and the "new man" in each of us.


Isn't infirmities the corruptible/mortal/carnal nature or the "man of sin" that is still present in us?

I agree with you, we are not to continue in sin. For most, our definition of sin is very narrow and we measure it to what we understand the 10Cs says. However, the definition of Sin is “the missing of the target”. Day in and day out, most of our arrows come very short of the glory of the Father despite if we follow the superficial meanings of all the laws. In all our doings, sayings, timings, etc... we mostly miss that target that only the Lord can hit. For anyone to hit a target in the bull’s-eye are only those that hear the voice of the Father or are in tuned with His Spirit. Those people are the only one that will say only the words that the Lord told him to say at the correct timing, and will do the deeds of the Father.

It’s been two years I started to understand the importance of hearing the Lord's voice, and I still mostly can’t differentiate His voice from mine. The Lord gave us ways to recognize His voice and if you desire to study about that, I’m willing to participate in such a study. The most important way or tool He has given us is with the double witness principle. This is very important to know.

Coming back to Paul, he may have not succumbed to the temptation. We really don't know. Myron's point is that he is struggling with temptation (sin) of some sort. I know he mentions that he suspects that Paul might of succumb to sin, but regardless if he did or not, or if the torn in the flesh is a certain sin -- does it change what was shared via the conversion process that is typified in the leavened bread of the Feast of Pentecost?

Another point worth bringing, I believe the Lord is more concern to remove sin from our heart than having us conform to exterior laws. He wants to bring us to a complete spiritual healing that can only be done via His process that, in time, will write His laws on our heart. It is a poor accomplishment to have someone following exterior laws by suppressing urges or temptations conforming to the “law” and goes around with a bitter spirit, is negative, judgmental, does not forgive, is not putting his talents in building the Lord’s kingdom, has no clue how the Lord operates nor can he read the signs of the time, the Lord can’t use him for a simple task because he cannot hear His voice but only can hear his own heart's purpose and will, etc...

Also this exterior conformation via men’s will power does not establish the ultimate goal -- an intimate relationship with the Lord that is acquired via tribulations and struggles by going through His process to examine the sin carefully and come to understanding it deeply. When we pass the test and come to agree with Him and saw His wisdom in that Law that before that sin it was unknown to us. Then we become like minded with the Lord in agreeing with Him in that regard. The result is we come to know and trust Him better. This is also how we can come to better recognize His voice too.

From the pages of posts here so far, would you all say we really understand conversion?

If the widely differing views are any indication then, No, we don't understand conversion. And since we are not in harmony on this key, basic, fundamental point we cannot, as the Remnant Church, proclaim the 3AM. Jesus will not return before everyone everywhere grasps the truth and chooses for it or against it. We are delaying His return because we are unable to proclaim the truth about conversion.

Mike, you are complicating things. The 3AM speak about the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. We all are in agreement about the commandments of God. The definition of the faith of Jesus is very simple; it must just be understood experientially. When you really understand it, you are converted.

"The faith of Jesus." It is talked of, but not understood. What constitutes the faith of Jesus, that belongs to the third angel's message? Jesus becoming our sin-bearer that He might become our sin-pardoning Saviour. He was treated as we deserve to be treated. He came to our world and took our sins that we might take His righteousness. And faith in the ability of Christ to save us amply and fully and entirely is the faith of Jesus. {3SM 172.3}

Who understands conversion? Don't we hear enough about it from our pulpits? Do our independent ministries understand and proclaim it? Are many too much concerned with prophetic interpretation and church order? Doctrines?

Do we understand the rest of this qutation?

Sin - is sin and the consequences of sin the same?
What does Jesus remove from us? The evilness in our flesh?
Faith
By faith we take His righteousness.

Well, after 10 pages of posts before this thread became inactive, do we really understand conversion?

Justification, sanctification, and glorification are three different aspects of salvation.

1. Justification is what Jesus does for us in heaven. It saves us from the penalty of sin. Sins are forgiven in the outer court.
2. Sanctification is what Jesus does in us on earth. It saves us from the power of sin. Sins are forsaken in the holy place.
3. Glorification is what Jesus does to us. It saves us from the presence of sin. Sins are forgotten in the most holy place.

Rebirth and conversion are two different aspects of salvation.

1. Rebirth is what happens when we give our heart to God. We confess and crucify our cultivated sinful habits.
2. Conversion is what happens when we give our head to God. We convert to obeying everything Jesus commanded.

Do we need both rebirth and conversion?

Better yet, can the two be separated?

The Bible describes rebirth and conversion beginning and ending together. However, nowadays people begin rebirth and conversion together (like normal) but they don't end together (like the Bible describes). Instead, they experience rebirth first and then they gradually complete the process of converting to obeying everything else Jesus commanded. For example, many people are endeared to Jesus and embrace Him as their personal Savior, that is, they experience rebirth (their heart is in harmony with Jesus). But they have not converted to the truth about the Sabbath, diet and dress reform, spiritualism, the mark of the beast, etc (their head is not completely in harmony with Jesus). Again, the Bible does not describe this kind of experience.

This is an important process, and reconversion is - or should be - a daily experience.

Do we need to cut this out in stone? The process of sanctification starts immediately and does not close until glorification. But even at glorification the process continues, because there will never be a moment through all of eternity where we can manage on our own without Jesus Christ.

Amen! The fruit of Jesus' sacrificial life, death, resurrection, and mediation is people who experience rebirth and conversion is God's appointed way.

Jesus said, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves." Mat. 23:15

Conversion is a public expression of intent to follow a new order. Backsliding is the increasing tendency to return to an original state.

Paul's conversion from Judaism to Christianity was spectacular and firm. Judas, on the other hand, followed Jesus but the love of country kept pulling him back until he fell away so far that he betrayed the one who he claimed to be following into the hands of those to whom he had returned.

There is an ever present tension between conversion and backsliding in the human heart. But the one who loves God will forever turn to Him, again and again and again until the very end, reaching ever upwards against a downward spiral.

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What about the conversion Peter?

When did the conversion of Peter take place?

The "process of conversion" has a beginning and an end - converting and converted. Rebirth happens when people experience the process of conversion in God's appointed way, when they learn how to live in harmony with "all things whatsoever"Jesus commanded. At this point eternal life begins and then they spend all of eternity growing and maturing in the fruit of the Spirit. Along the way, while here on Earth (before probation closes), they may (not will as though it is inevitable and unavoidable) neglect Jesus and sin. Sinning severs our relationship with Jesus, it separates us from Him, and while thus disconnected we are in jeopardy of damnation. We must embrace (activate) the gift of repentance, which empowers us to confess our sin, which gives God the legal right to restore the relationship our sin severed, which then frees us to resume where we left off abiding in Jesus, partaking of the divine nature, growing in grace and maturing daily in the fruit of the Spirit. We do not, cannot sin while thus arranged.

Peter was converting to Jesus during the three years he labored with Him. But it wasn't until he fully embraced Jesus as his personal Savior did he finally complete the process of converting to Jesus - which happened after the resurrection of Jesus.

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

The KJV uses the word "converted" in its archaic sense of "restored yourself, returned again to Me." The more modern translations uses English as we know it and gives the original sense for our age. You can see the whole list of translations here: https://biblehub.com/luke/22-32.htm

Peter was converted long before, for it was he who said to Jesus, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Mat. 16:16 It was his public acknowledgment of his faith as opposed to everyone else saying that Jesus was "John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." v.14

The same applies when you agree to be baptized. That holy immersion in full view of the public atests to your conversion. Conversion does NOT mean that you are firmly entrenched and unshakable in your new found faith, or that you must wait for or work to reach such a point.

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It's hard to say. Perhaps when Jesus asked him to follow Him and he did?

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Yes, we agree experiencing conversion and rebirth in God's appointed way does not mean they are incapable of neglecting Jesus and resuming where they left off sinning. We are not free to sin until we are free from sin. Rebirth sets us free. We are born again dead to sin and awake to righteousness. Walking in the mind of the new man allows Jesus to empower us to abide in Him, to partake of the divine nature, and thereby to grow in grace and mature daily in the fruits of the Spirit. The growth we enjoy while abiding in Jesus, while partaking of the divine nature progresses from grace to grace, from faith to faith, from glory to glory - not from greater sins to lesser sins. Like Jesus, who grew and matured from childhood to manhood, so too, we grow and mature shinning more and more unto the perfect day, from candlelight to sunlight. This glorious growth begins at rebirth here on Earth and will continue throughout Eternity. Thank you, Jesus.