Who are the tares? Plants? or people? Jesus spoke of tares as being people. Do you feel Ellen White would not have done likewise?

The Bible says God cursed the ground. Sin was a curse, yes. But God's pronouncement was immediately effective. God cannot command nor speak but what He utters comes to pass. Mrs. White also agrees that God cursed the ground, but notice the reasoning behind it.



God "appointed" the difficulties for our own good. So the "curse" was really a "blessing." You don't believe that Satan would be in the business of blessing us, do you?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green - the Bible says God killed Saul, 1Ch_10:13-14. Did He? No, 1Ch_10:4. The Bible says the LORD sent fiery serpents to bite the people, Num_21:6. But did he? No, Patriarchs and Prophets, 429.1.

Did God create thorns and thistles? No.

All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares. {16MR 247.2}

In the earth seared and marred by the curse, in the briers, the thistles, the thorns, the tares, we may read the law of condemnation; but in the delicate color and perfume of the flowers, we may learn that God still loves us, that His mercy is not wholly withdrawn from the earth (RH Nov. 8, 1898). {1BC 1085.10}

God's curse is a declaration of what was to happen. God did not create the thorns, thistles and tares. Satan did. God's statement in Gen_3:18 is a statement of fact, He said what was going to happen.

APL,

That kind of explanation fails to look squarely at the truth and to acknowledge it. We've been round and round this rock with other members of this forum before. I'm really not interested in continuing it. An explanation like this fails of being truly logical. Something has to give. Either Ellen White was wrong, the Bible was wrong, or the explanation was wrong. The explanation, as you have composed it, claims that God appointed Satan and his woes. Which is almost worse than saying that God appointed the thorns and thistles Himself (as Mrs. White says He did)...and just as bad as saying that He created the thorns and thistles.

In fact, if God told Satan to do it, was God not responsible? What if God just "allowed" Satan to do it? Was that consequence then "appointed?"

David told his general to draw back from around Uriah, Bathsheba's husband. None of David's men touched Uriah. Uriah died at the hand of the enemy. But God told David through the prophet Nathan that David was the one that killed Uriah.

You are trying to let God off of the same type of hook that God did not let David off of Himself. That's the inconsistency of your position here.

Which brings us full circle back to the topic of this thread. God would not change His own law in order to avoid the death penalty Himself on our behalf. It was because the law could not be changed that Jesus died to pay our penalty.

I urge you to reconsider your views...not for me, not for this forum, nor for anyone else but for yourself. Don't even tell me about your views having been updated. Just ponder these truths for awhile and see where God leads.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

DID God tell Satan to do it. No. Is God responsible to the origin and continuation of sin? What is your answer Green?

Here is where you logic does not fit. David commanded the murder of Uriah. This is clear. With God we have the story of Job. Clearly God "allowed" as you say the things that happened to Job. Many innocent people died. Did God COMMAND Job to bring on all the disasters of Job? No. But He did allow it. Satan had a choice in what he did to Job. Satan was exposed as a liar and a murderer. In your logic with David and Uriah, that makes God a murderer because he allowed it. No, the stories are very different.

You view the law as a legal document, sin as a legal violation, and the penalty as something that HAS to be imposed. You say God is one that brings on sickness, death and distruction, just as Satan brings on sickness, death and distruction.

My view, which has not changed, is that the Law is not legal. The 10C are discriptive of how God's creation would behave as it comes from the hand of the creator. EGW writes "...the laws of nature are the laws of God...{6T 369.1}". Ignorance of the laws of nature and violating them is sin just as violating the 10C. God's law may be summarized as "The incredibly complex way wherein god has made His creations to function." This includes the laws of chemistry, biology, physicis etc. and the "blueprint" upon which they are assimilated. This is not a legal law, it is a fundamental design template, and it is unchangeable. You can not change one jot or tittle, Matthew 5:18. God's "work is perfect", Deuteronomy 32:4. EGW writes, "Satan sought to correct the law of God in heaven, and to supply an amendment of his own. {ST, November 19, 1894 par. 2}" "Therefore it was necessary that he should demonstrate the nature of his claims, and show the working out of his proposed changes in the divine law. His own work must condemn him. {GC 498.2}"

The law of Jehovah was burdened with needless exactions and traditions, and God was represented as severe, exacting, revengeful, and arbitrary. ... The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 6}

If the death of Christ is just a legal penalty paid, then we can be saved in our sins, not from them. The atonement of Christ is not a mere skillful way to have our sins pardoned; it is a divine remedy for the cure of transgression and the restoration of spiritual health. The wages of sin is death, not execution by God. We will not and can not be saved in our sins. We must be saved from our sins.

.

I know, I know. The death of Christ is not "just a legal payment". No it is not. The legal side does not and can not save anyone. We can not be saved in our sins. We must be saved from our sins. Penal substitution does not work. Moral influence does not work.

The Bible says God did it.



If Satan did that, and if none of that is supposed to happen, I challenge you to stop eating vegetables, stop working for your bread, and don't let your body return to dust!

To me, it looks like commands of God. You can't counter them. God's word does not return to Him void, but accomplishes that whereunto He has sent it.

The "sons of God" recognized the Source of the curse:


And God takes responsibility for the curse Himself.


The ground is cursed "for thy sake." It is a blessing of God in disguise.


If the law is not legal, there's no point discussing this any more. It seems you would agree with Satan that the law is too hard and unfair--such as cannot be kept.

"Legal" means "law" by definition. Either there is a law or there is not. Without law we have lawlessness. Laws are not just "wish lists." Laws are not just "goals." Laws are legal instruments. Laws come with consequences for their transgression. A toothless law is not a real law. It appears you wish the law had no teeth--therefore your conclusion that it is not "legal." Sadly, you are far from the truth in this.

The law had such grave consequences as to cause Jesus' death for us. That is certainly a "legal" law...a regal, legal law.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I thought you studied biology in College. Are there not LAWS in biology? Are all LAWS legal? No. The LAWS of nature describe facts of events in nature. Nothing "LEGAL" about them. Enacted laws, while good, do not have intrisic consequences. The penalty is imposed. Natural laws have consequences, and the consequences are intrinsic, the penalty for breaking the law is not an imposed penalty. Nature's laws are not toothless. In fact, breaking can bring on death! You have God breaking one of the 10 commandments in order to maintain the 10 commandments. Amazing!

Genesis 3:17-19 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

"cursed is the ground..." -- Statement of fact. "thorns also thistles shall it bring forth" -- statement of fact. "In the sweat of thy face..." -- Statement of fact. EGW confirms: Christ never planted the seeds of death in the system. Satan planted these seeds when he tempted Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge, which meant disobedience to God. Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of the sower the question was asked the master, "Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? From whence then hath it tares?" The master answered, "An enemy hath done this." [Matthew 13:27, 28.] All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares. {16MR 247.2}

In fact EGW tells us HOW Satan made the thorns, thistles and noxious herbs - by GENETIC ENGINEERING. Amazing!

None of this was "SUPPOSED" to happen. But sin entered the world, and corrupted all life. All creation groans together... Romans 8:22. Sin entered the world, and God informed us what was going to be the result.

If have the story of Job which informs us of the real source of disease, and death, and WHO causes it. Satan is the destroyer, God is the restorer. Did God cause the death of Job's children? NOPE. Did God allow it? Yes. Did God cause Job's diseases? NOPE. But God did allow it. This is the Great Controversy. Did you read the quote above? I don't think so. "Therefore it was necessary that he should demonstrate the nature of his claims, and show the working out of his proposed changes in the divine law. His own work must condemn him. {GC 498.2}" And this quote: "The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. " Which attributes might that be? Hm. That God is arbitrary? Vengeful? Exactly? Severe? "The law of Jehovah was burdened with needless exactions and traditions, and God was represented as severe, exacting, revengeful, and arbitrary. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 6}". Did Christ ever kill anyone? Did Christ ever cause anyone to have disease? John 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? "Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 9} " If you finish this last paragraph, EGW will tell you what Christ's whole mission was, and it was NOT Legal. If Christ misson was to pay a legal penalty, then we could be saved in our sins. But we must be saved FROM our sins. All the legal manipulation in the universe will not do that. The atonement of Christ is not a mere skillful way to have our sins pardoned; it is a divine remedy for the cure of transgression and the restoration of spiritual health. (Letter 406, 1906).

• Jesus has pledged His word; He will save all who come unto Him. Though millions who need to be healed will reject His offered mercy, not one who trusts in His merits will be left to perish. {PP 432.1}

It is not moral influence. It is not penal substitution. It is Trust/Healing.

APL,

Yes, I studied biology in college. I also studied theology in college. I also studied linguistics. In fact, I studied as much as I was able, and have always been an avid learner.

Balance means not focusing on one element to the exclusion of all others. I must understand the Bible in proper balance. As much as I dearly love biology, the Bible is not about biology. It is about salvation. The Bible uses some biology as a tool for explaining the greatest science of all--the science of salvation. The Bible has other tools to support this same science besides biology.

Looking at the "biology" part for a minute, forasmuch as I enjoy it, I still cannot make the Bible to teach "correct" biological views on every point. For instance, mustard seeds or plants are not somehow equivalent to faith, legally or illegally. Lions are not converted to Satan nor to Jesus. Moons are not suddenly prophets via biological law, nor suns saviors. Birds are not biologically equivalent to demons. Beasts are not nations. And the list goes on almost endlessly. These, and other symbols, are not subject to biological laws. They are subject to spiritual laws.

More to the point, "tares" do not represent literal weeds in Jesus' parable. "Seeds" are not literal plant-reproducing packages.

Do you know what "amalgamation" means? Let's go back to your "biology-based" manner of interpreting for a minute. An "amalgam" is anything mixed with mercury (Hg). If I were to interpret, based on biology, Ellen White's statement regarding Satan having perverted man and beast through "amalgamation," I would be forced to conclude that Satan has been perverting all creation through the literal injection of mercury (a neurotoxin for sure) into man and beast through such means as vaccinations, "silver" amalgam tooth fillings, fluorescent lights, burning of coal, etc. Indeed, such "amalgamations" are producing people who are easily angered, illogical/irrational at times, and who have poor memories and many health problems. Animals are similarly affected. But, while the biological "law" may here apply, I do not choose to limit God's Word to merely the realm of biology.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Jesus' words were about people. He used an example from Biology. In the quotes I provided, EGW is talking about biology. The Bible is not all metaphor.

Amalgamation - One use of the word is the mixing of mercury with other metals. However, the general use of the word is a blending of two different things. EGW is not talking about the mixing of mercury in her quotes.

Yes, not only do you not choose to limit God's word to merely the realm of biology, it choose to exclude it.