Let me first make it clear that I believe in our health message and I am a vegetarian, and therefore I have a problem with using my eating conviction and practice as an issue in a reference to conversion.

It is my firm belief that the health message is essential for the well being of God's people in these days, and also an aid in resisting many temptations, but if I use this item as being a part of my conversion I see this as a breach in the messages given both by Paul and Ellen White about justification by faith.

Many of the 17 quotations given above tell me that there is no distinguishing mark where I can clap myself on the shoulder because I have an assurance that my conversion is genuine. My assurance is that Christ is perfect and grants me His righteousness. I can destroy this through lack of faith. Eating meat could be one of the weaknesses which would break my relationship with Christ, but if I make this a distinguishing mark I could easily miss the point that there could be a thousand issues which could just as well break that relationship.

I'm glad you read that long post. I found it quite valuable to understand deeper the meaning of Pentecost and how the Lord removes the sins from us. It was something I needed to meditate upon as I don't want to bury my sins but really want them completly removed.

This explains why sins reoccure in many Christians as the work to examine them and learn from them is not done. Therefore the Lord will not remove the temptation or the sin. The person is converted but they do not understand how the Lord's works to heal them fully.


What do you think the torn was?

To be honest I haven't studied this in dept. What comes to me is that Paul talks about the struggle within man in Rom 7. I do know from studies that Jesus places a seed(His Spirit) in us. And there is such things as the struggle between the "old man" and the "new man" in each of us.


Isn't infirmities the corruptible/mortal/carnal nature or the "man of sin" that is still present in us?

I agree with you, we are not to continue in sin. For most, our definition of sin is very narrow and we measure it to what we understand the 10Cs says. However, the definition of Sin is “the missing of the target”. Day in and day out, most of our arrows come very short of the glory of the Father despite if we follow the superficial meanings of all the laws. In all our doings, sayings, timings, etc... we mostly miss that target that only the Lord can hit. For anyone to hit a target in the bull’s-eye are only those that hear the voice of the Father or are in tuned with His Spirit. Those people are the only one that will say only the words that the Lord told him to say at the correct timing, and will do the deeds of the Father.

It’s been two years I started to understand the importance of hearing the Lord's voice, and I still mostly can’t differentiate His voice from mine. The Lord gave us ways to recognize His voice and if you desire to study about that, I’m willing to participate in such a study. The most important way or tool He has given us is with the double witness principle. This is very important to know.

Coming back to Paul, he may have not succumbed to the temptation. We really don't know. Myron's point is that he is struggling with temptation (sin) of some sort. I know he mentions that he suspects that Paul might of succumb to sin, but regardless if he did or not, or if the torn in the flesh is a certain sin -- does it change what was shared via the conversion process that is typified in the leavened bread of the Feast of Pentecost?

Another point worth bringing, I believe the Lord is more concern to remove sin from our heart than having us conform to exterior laws. He wants to bring us to a complete spiritual healing that can only be done via His process that, in time, will write His laws on our heart. It is a poor accomplishment to have someone following exterior laws by suppressing urges or temptations conforming to the “law” and goes around with a bitter spirit, is negative, judgmental, does not forgive, is not putting his talents in building the Lord’s kingdom, has no clue how the Lord operates nor can he read the signs of the time, the Lord can’t use him for a simple task because he cannot hear His voice but only can hear his own heart's purpose and will, etc...

Also this exterior conformation via men’s will power does not establish the ultimate goal -- an intimate relationship with the Lord that is acquired via tribulations and struggles by going through His process to examine the sin carefully and come to understanding it deeply. When we pass the test and come to agree with Him and saw His wisdom in that Law that before that sin it was unknown to us. Then we become like minded with the Lord in agreeing with Him in that regard. The result is we come to know and trust Him better. This is also how we can come to better recognize His voice too.

From the pages of posts here so far, would you all say we really understand conversion?

If the widely differing views are any indication then, No, we don't understand conversion. And since we are not in harmony on this key, basic, fundamental point we cannot, as the Remnant Church, proclaim the 3AM. Jesus will not return before everyone everywhere grasps the truth and chooses for it or against it. We are delaying His return because we are unable to proclaim the truth about conversion.

Mike, you are complicating things. The 3AM speak about the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. We all are in agreement about the commandments of God. The definition of the faith of Jesus is very simple; it must just be understood experientially. When you really understand it, you are converted.

"The faith of Jesus." It is talked of, but not understood. What constitutes the faith of Jesus, that belongs to the third angel's message? Jesus becoming our sin-bearer that He might become our sin-pardoning Saviour. He was treated as we deserve to be treated. He came to our world and took our sins that we might take His righteousness. And faith in the ability of Christ to save us amply and fully and entirely is the faith of Jesus. {3SM 172.3}

Who understands conversion? Don't we hear enough about it from our pulpits? Do our independent ministries understand and proclaim it? Are many too much concerned with prophetic interpretation and church order? Doctrines?

Do we understand the rest of this qutation?

Sin - is sin and the consequences of sin the same?
What does Jesus remove from us? The evilness in our flesh?
Faith
By faith we take His righteousness.

Well, after 10 pages of posts before this thread became inactive, do we really understand conversion?

Justification, sanctification, and glorification are three different aspects of salvation.

1. Justification is what Jesus does for us in heaven. It saves us from the penalty of sin. Sins are forgiven in the outer court.
2. Sanctification is what Jesus does in us on earth. It saves us from the power of sin. Sins are forsaken in the holy place.
3. Glorification is what Jesus does to us. It saves us from the presence of sin. Sins are forgotten in the most holy place.

Rebirth and conversion are two different aspects of salvation.

1. Rebirth is what happens when we give our heart to God. We confess and crucify our cultivated sinful habits.
2. Conversion is what happens when we give our head to God. We convert to obeying everything Jesus commanded.