Two questions:
1) Was Jesus consumed by fire?
2) Will all sinners be crucified?

If your answer to both of the above can be "yes," then perhaps we can continue along the line of thought you are proposing. If you cannot answer both of the above in the affirmative, why not?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

How hard is this to understand? Did God send the fiery serpents? The miracle is that the serpents did not bite. When God withdrew his protection, the serpents did what they normally did. The people understood that it was the power of God that was sustaining them and protecting them. With Korah, it is the same thing. When God withdrew His protection, the geology acted as it would normally act. If you call this God executing Korah, so be it. It was the power of God that sustained the people. When God "hid His face", "let them go", "gave them up", they died.

So - you do not believe that Jesus died the second death, the same death that sinners will die. I do. As for fire, I have answered this already to MM. BTW - crucifixion did not kill Jesus. It had a big statement to make by His crucifixion, but He did not die of crucifixion.

• James 1:12-17 Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to them that love him. 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death. 16 Do not err, my beloved brothers. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no ficklenss, neither shadow of turning.

I guess this version was translated wrong. It should say, sin, when it is finished, brings execution by God. Of course, then we need to change this verse also:

• 1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

God is not just light, He is really darkness, and death. Love Him, or He will torture you to death. We have nothing to fear from Satan, God is the one we really need to be afraid of!!! [/sarcasm]

"This, they reason, is not in accordance with God. . . . {12MR 207.1}

God's love is represented in our day as being of such a character as would forbid His destroying the sinner. Men reason from their own low standard of right and justice. "Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself" (Psalm 50:21). They measure God by themselves. They reason as to how they would act under the circumstances and decide God would do as they imagine they would do.
{12MR 207.2}

God's goodness and long forbearance, His patience and mercy exercised to His subjects, will not hinder Him from punishing the sinner who refused to be obedient to His requirements. It is not for a man--a criminal against God's holy law, pardoned only through the great sacrifice He made in giving His Son to die for the guilty because His law was changeless--to dictate to God. After all this effort on the part of God to preserve the sacred and exalted character of His law, if men, through the sophistry of the devil, turn the mercy and condescension of God into a curse, they must suffer the penalty. Because Christ died they consider they have liberty to transgress God's holy law that condemns the transgressor, and would complain of its strictness and its penalty as severe and unlike God. They are uttering the words Satan utters to millions, to quiet their conscience in rebellion against God. {12MR 208.1}

In no kingdom or government is it left to the lawbreakers to say what punishment is to be executed against those who have broken the law. All we have, all the bounties of His grace which we possess, we owe to God. The aggravating character of sin against such a God cannot be estimated any more than the heavens can be measured with a span. God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the Lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force. {12MR 208.2}

The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers
that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice.--Ms 5, 1876, pp. 1-3.

dedication - I know this quotes well. And I agree with them. I believe they are quoted in the book Last Day Events. The question is HOW does God do it? EGW is also very clear on this fact. The section right after the 12MR quotes above are quoted in LDE, you find the following heading: Judgments Come When God Removes His Protection: "I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection." This describes Korah and the fiery serpents. Read Hosea 11:8, it also describe Sodom and Gomorrah.

Again - read Patriarchs and Prophets, the first chapter, Why Was Sin Permitted. The natural consequences of Satan's sin suspended. If Satan had been allowed to die, people would have served God from fear. Why fear? Because if you break His law, He will kill you, so you better toe the line. They would have thought that sin brings execution, instead of sin having the intrinsic punishment of death.

One of the things Christ showed by His death that the wages of sin is death. Christ died the death of a sinner. Romans 5:10 says that we friends with God through the death of His son. Why? Because we see how it is that God destroys sinners.

No one here is evidently going to see the sermon by Herb Montgomery titled, Charizomai. Perhaps you might read? Charizomai

The above was not from "Last Day Events" though a portion of it is quoted in that book. The full message is found in Manuscript Release Vol. 12 p. 207-209.

"Last Day Events" is a good resource where one can see subjects and then go and find the source to read the context, but I'm somewhat leery about simply reading compilations where bits and pieces are organized together --

Yes, "Last Day Events" after quoting from the above, then has a section (p. 242) made up of situations where judgment falls on sinners when God withdraws His protection. There is no question that the suffering, and terrible things in this world are the result of sin.

The section after that (p.243) has examples where angels of God are sent forth to destroy the oppressor and deliver the oppressed.

The issue is not a contradiction.
The clear statement explains the dilemma --

"The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere.--GC 614 (1911).


In other words -- Satan and his evil followers are permitted to show their destructive nature, sin is allowed to show it's results, but there are times when the "cup of iniquity is full" when God removes the hardened sinners. An act of mercy to keep the earth in a state in which people can still respond to truth and LIFE.

The Lord seeks to save, not to destroy. He delights in the rescue of sinners. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Ezekiel 33:11. By warnings and entreaties He calls the wayward to cease from their evil-doing and to turn to Him and live.

But he is also a God of justice.
He allows the wicked so much time and space to turn from their descent into evil, till their cup of iniquity is full, but he won't allow them to harass and exploit and destroy forever. He will put an end to the dreadful evil and all who insist on perpetuating it and deliver His faithful and give them peace.

I didn't say I believed or didn't believe anything in the above, did I? But I would be interested in your answer to the latter question, repeated below.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Well said, Dedication.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

The above was not from "Last Day Events" though a portion of it is quoted in that book. The full message is found in Manuscript Release Vol. 12 p. 207-209.

That is what I said in my reply.

"Last Day Events" is a good resource where one can see subjects and then go and find the source to read the context, but I'm somewhat leery about simply reading compilations where bits and pieces are organized together --

EGW instructed that derivative works should be made of her writings.

Yes, "Last Day Events" after quoting from the above, then has a section (p. 242) made up of situations where judgment falls on sinners when God withdraws His protection. There is no question that the suffering, and terrible things in this world are the result of sin.

Yes, and HOW did these things happen. What is the mechanism?

The section after that (p.243) has examples where angels of God are sent forth to destroy the oppressor and deliver the oppressed.

The issue is not a contradiction.
The clear statement explains the dilemma --

"The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere.--GC 614 (1911).

Revelation 7:1-3 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

In other words -- Satan and his evil followers are permitted to show their destructive nature, sin is allowed to show it's results, but there are times when the "cup of iniquity is full" when God removes the hardened sinners. An act of mercy to keep the earth in a state in which people can still respond to truth and LIFE.

Yes He does act to remove sinners. HOW He does it is the question.

The Lord seeks to save, not to destroy. He delights in the rescue of sinners. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Ezekiel 33:11. By warnings and entreaties He calls the wayward to cease from their evil-doing and to turn to Him and live.

Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, As I live, said the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn you, turn you from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?
Matthew 1:21 KJV And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Sin is the destructive power.

But he is also a God of justice.
He allows the wicked so much time and space to turn from their descent into evil, till their cup of iniquity is full, but he won't allow them to harass and exploit and destroy forever. He will put an end to the dreadful evil and all who insist on perpetuating it and deliver His faithful and give them peace.

Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Malachi 4:1-3 For, behold, the day comes, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that comes shall burn them up, said the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But to you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and you shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And you shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, said the LORD of hosts.

Ezekiel 28:15-19 You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in you. 16 By the multitude of your merchandise they have filled the middle of you with violence, and you have sinned: therefore I will cast you as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy you, O covering cherub, from the middle of the stones of fire. 17 Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty, you have corrupted your wisdom by reason of your brightness: I will cast you to the ground, I will lay you before kings, that they may behold you. 18 You have defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the middle of you, it shall devour you, and I will bring you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all them that behold you. 19 All they that know you among the people shall be astonished at you: you shall be a terror, and never shall you be any more.

Satan's iniguities, his sin, will destroy him as it will destroy all sinners who have not been healed of their sins, by repentance and submission to God. It is not penal substitution that was needed of moral influence, but trust and healing, for say to them, As I live, said the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn you, turn you from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?

God will put an end to sin and sinners.