Rosangela quoted...

• “After Adam and Eve had sinned, they were under bondage to the law. Because of their transgression they were sentenced to suffer death, the penalty of sin. But Christ, the propitiation for our sins, declared: 'I will stand in Adam's place. I will take upon myself the penalty of his sin. He shall have another trial. I will secure for him a probation. He shall have the privileges and the opportunities of a free man, and be allowed to exercise his God-given power of choice. I will postpone the day of his arraignment for trial. He shall be bound over to appear at the bar of God in the judgment.' ... God's law has lost none of its force. In his sight sin is still a hateful thing. Because we have sinned, we must personally bear the condemnation of the law, unless some one else, one in whom no taint of sin can be found, will bear the condemnation in our behalf. Without a substitute, we have no hope of pardon and salvation.... Sinners are committed for trial. They must answer to the charge of transgressing God's law. Their only hope is to accept Christ, their Substitute. He has redeemed the fallen race from the curse of the law, having been made sin--a curse--for mankind. Nothing but his grace is sufficient to free the transgressor from bondage. And by the grace of Christ all who are obedient to God's commandments are made free.” {AU Gleaner, August 19, 1903}
  
  “So great is the deceptive power of Satan, that many have been led to regard the atonement of Christ as of no real value. Christ died because there was no other hope for the transgressor. He might try to keep God's law in the future; but the debt which he had incurred in the past remained, and the law must condemn him to death. Christ came to pay that debt for the sinner which it was impossible for him to pay for himself. Thus, through the atoning sacrifice of Christ, sinful man was granted another trial.” {RH, March 8, 1881 par. 4}
  
  Ellen White is clear about the two aspects of the atonement:
  
  "But because the law of God was as changeless as his character, 1)it was necessary in order to preserve the authority of the universal Sovereign, and 2) at the same time save man from the consequences of his transgression, that Jesus Christ should die, a sinless offering for a sinful world. The death of Christ therefore testifies to the immutability of God's law." {ST, March 7, 1878 par. 16}
  
  "Christ on the cross 1) not only draws men to repentance toward God for the transgression of His law--for whom God pardons He first makes penitent— 2) but Christ has satisfied Justice; He has proffered Himself as an atonement. His gushing blood, His broken body, satisfy the claims of the broken law, and thus He bridges the gulf which sin has made. He suffered in the flesh, that with His bruised and broken body He might cover the defenseless sinner." {AG 153.2}
  
  “Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ 1) exhausted the penalty and 2) provided a pardon.” {1SM 340.1}

I can say, A MEN to all of EGW's quotes. Jesus died to demonstrate the immutability of the law. But what is the law? Is it an enacted, prescriptive or proscriptive law? Or is it the descriptive law of how everything, both animate and inanimate operate? I read it as the latter. All else hear read it as a legal law. God's design is perfect. It is unchangeable. Satan "supplied and amendment", he changed the way he and we operate. He sinned. He transgressed the law. Not a legal transgression, a real, physical transgression. You can not change the way God has made us, His works are perfect. Christ came, and took our nature, or fallen sinful nature. He bore our sin in His body on the tree, 1 Peter 2:24 - - literal statement. When He had perged our sin, He sat down at the right hand of the Father, Hebrews 1:3. He perged the sin He carried in His body, He became the savior of the world, which He offers to us. Only the spotless son of God, the creator of all things, the designer and builder of our bodies, came and worked out a cure. He proved, that SIN causes death, and He now provided a cure to those that will trust in Him. Trust/Healing.

You answered the first question - So you agree, Christ demonstrated the death of a sinner! Good. Then interpret Revelation and EGW from that viewpoint.

You did not answer the second question - how does sin affect all life?
First SIN is the cause of all death. Second, only on "innocent" being has ever died in all the universe. Alcohol - do you know that mobile genetic elements cause the yeast that is used to produce alchohol instead of standard metabolism, requiring great energy expendature by the yeast? They have been genetically altered. EGW tells us that this was the work of the devil! See RH, April 16, 1901

EGW: "I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection." Just as it says in Romans 1.

Christ's mission could be fulfilled only through suffering. Before Him was a life of sorrow, hardship, and conflict, and an ignominious death. He must bear the sins of the whole world. He must endure separation from His Father's love. {DA 129.3}


MR No. 1201 - Christ's Mission to Earth (excerpts)
It was sin that separated man from his God, and it is sin that maintains this separation. {16MR 115.2}

What a sight was this for heaven to look upon. Christ, who knew not the least moral taint or defilement of sin, took our nature in its deteriorated condition. {16MR 115.3}
There was not a drop of bitter woe which He did not taste, not a part of the curse which He did not endure, that He might bring many sons and daughters to God. {16MR 116.1}

By taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. He was subject to the infirmities and weaknesses of the flesh with which humanity is encompassed, "that it might be fulfilled that was spoken by the prophet Esaias, Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." He was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was in all points tempted like as we are. And yet He was without a spot. {16MR 116.3}

The enmity referred to in the prophecy in Eden was not to be confined merely to Satan and the Prince of life. It was to be universal. Satan and his angels were to feel the enmity of all mankind. {16MR 117.3}

The enmity put between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman was supernatural. [seed = genetic material] With Christ the enmity was in one sense natural; in another sense it was supernatural, as humanity and divinity were combined. And never was the enmity developed to such a marked degree as when Christ became a resident of this earth. Never before had there been a being upon the earth who hated sin with so perfect a hatred as did Christ. He had seen its deceiving, infatuating power upon the holy angels, causing them to revolt, and all His powers were enlisted against Satan. In the purity and holiness of His life, Christ flashed the light of truth amid the moral darkness with which Satan had enshrouded the world. Christ exposed his falsehoods and deceiving character, and spoiled his corrupting influence. {16MR 118.1}

But Christ was unmoved; and He used only the weapons justifiable for human beings to use--the word of Him who is mighty in counsel, "It is written." {16MR 119.2}

With what intense interest was this controversy watched by the heavenly angels and the unfallen worlds as the honor of the law was being vindicated. Not merely for this world, but for the universe of heaven and the worlds that God had created, was the controversy to be forever settled. The confederacy of darkness were watching for the semblance of a chance to rise and triumph over the divine and human Substitute and Surety of the human race, that the apostate might shout Victory, and the world and its inhabitants forever become his kingdom. But Satan reached only the heel; he could not touch the head. {16MR 119.4}

After His resurrection, Christ opened the understanding of His followers, that they might understand the Scriptures. Everything had been transformed by the working of the arts of Satan. Truth was covered up by the rubbish of error, and hidden from finite sight. … {16MR 122.3}

So dull has been the comprehension of even those who teach the truth to others that many things cannot be opened to them until they reach heaven. It ought not to be so. But as men's minds become narrow, they think they know it all, and set one stake after another in points of truths of which they have only a glimpse. They close their minds as though there were no more for them to learn, and should the Lord attempt to lead them on, they would not take up with the increased light. They cling to the spot where they think they see a glimmer of light, when it is only a link in the living chain of truths and promises to be studied. They know very little of what it means to follow in the footsteps of Christ. {16MR 123.2}

First - either you, dedication, have not read what I have written, or you interpretation is wrong, or you are making false statement on purpose. I hope it is not the latter. Where have I ever looked at the death of Christ was from "(crucifixion)". Christ did NOT die of crucifixion. He died because of sin. He was dying in Gethsemane. No one had touched Him. Not the Jews, not the Romans and NOT GOD. The sacrificial offerings were ordained by God to be to man a perpetual reminder and a penitential acknowledgment of his sin and a confession of his faith in the promised Redeemer. They were intended to impress upon the fallen race the solemn truth that it was sin that caused death. {PP 68.1}

YES! And if Christ experienced the second death, then we must look at the second death in light of the cross and how God is involved with that death! The Cross is the answer.

OK - in other words, you do not know how sin brings on all these calamities. You acknowledge it does, but you really did not answer the question.

• Although the earth was blighted with the curse, nature was still to be man's lesson book. It could not now represent goodness only; for evil was everywhere present, marring earth and sea and air with its defiling touch. Where once was written only the character of God, the knowledge of good, was now written also the character of Satan, the knowledge of evil. From nature, which now revealed the knowledge of good and evil, man was continually to receive warning as to the results of sin. {Ed 26.2}
  
  In drooping flower and falling leaf Adam and his companion witnessed the first signs of decay. Vividly was brought to their minds the stern fact that every living thing must die. Even the air, upon which their life depended, bore the seeds of death. {Ed 26.3}
  
  Continually they were reminded also of their lost dominion. Among the lower creatures Adam had stood as king, and so long as he remained loyal to God, all nature acknowledged his rule; but when he transgressed, this dominion was forfeited. The spirit of rebellion, to which he himself had given entrance, extended throughout the animal creation. Thus not only the life of man, but the nature of the beasts, the trees of the forest, the grass of the field, the very air he breathed, all told the sad lesson of the knowledge of evil. {Ed 26.4}
  
  But man was not abandoned to the results of the evil he had chosen. In the sentence pronounced upon Satan was given an intimation of redemption. "I will put enmity between thee and the woman," God said, "and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Genesis 3:15. This sentence, spoken in the hearing of our first parents, was to them a promise. Before they heard of the thorn and the thistle, of the toil and sorrow that must be their portion, or of the dust to which they must return, they listened to words that could not fail of giving them hope. All that had been lost by yielding to Satan could be regained through Christ. {Ed 27.1}
  
  This intimation also nature repeats to us. Though marred by sin, it speaks not only of creation but of redemption. Though the earth bears testimony to the curse in the evident signs of decay, it is still rich and beautiful in the tokens of life-giving power.

So, not only was man marred by sin, but all life. HOW does sin do that if sin is just a breaking of the rules, a legal violation? This whole quote from Education, is very easy to understand from a genomic view of sin. Adam's sin took down all of creation on this planet.

• Christ never planted the seeds of death in the system. Satan planted these seeds when he tempted Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge, which meant disobedience to God. Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of the sower the question was asked the master, "Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? From whence then hath it tares?" The master answered, "An enemy hath done this." [Matthew 13:27, 28.] All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares. {16MR 247.2}

OOPS!! Another distortion. Are you purposely doing this? Can we "heal" ourselves" NO. Why do you then intimate that I claim we can heal ourselves? I do not agree with you. I do agree with EGW.

• Our Lord Jesus Christ came to this world as the unwearied servant of man's necessity. He "took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses," that He might minister to every need of humanity. Matthew 8:17. The burden of disease and wretchedness and sin He came to remove. It was His mission to bring to men complete restoration; He came to give them health and peace and perfection of character. {MH 17.1}

Hmm, It still is the Ministry of HEALING. Not the ministry of JURISPRUDENCE. This quote says that Christ came to provide healing, complete restoration. Yes, I like that view very much.

I agree with you, that the 185,000 Assyrians did not die of "natural causes". They did not develop boils like Hezekiah, and I never claimed they did, as you again are wrongly suggesting. I only pointed out one point in the story, there are other clues. And when you take into account modern archeology, the picture gets clearer. The Assyrians used weapons of mass destruction. They were very intelligent people, and probably very good students of nature. Taking each little piece of the story, paints a picture of what might have happened. There is plenty of evidence, and evidence that appeals to the reason.

• God never asks us to believe, without giving sufficient evidence upon which to base our faith. His existence, His character, the truthfulness of His word, are all established by testimony that appeals to our reason; and this testimony is abundant. Yet God has never removed the possibility of doubt. Our faith must rest upon evidence, not demonstration. Those who wish to doubt will have opportunity; while those who really desire to know the truth will find plenty of evidence on which to rest their faith. {SC 105.2}

APL,

You have taken EGW's statement out of context. Here is more of the context:



What is the context? It is of the time in which we now are living. It is NOT the context of the final judgment.

In fact, there is a part of that statement which says that "God will bear long, but there is a bound to His mercy, a line which marks His mercy and His justice." The Bible also says this. "The LORD [is] merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy. He will not always chide: neither will he keep [his anger] for ever."

The context of the statement you quoted, APL, is of a particular group of people. What is the antecedent of the pronoun "them" in that quote? You will find there the appropriate group to which the message applies. She was not there speaking of those who are dying the second death. Not at all.

Those who truly seek the truth will be open to accepting it for what it is, without bending it to their opinions. The truth in this case is that Mrs. White referred to a group of people who had been specially privileged to know God and to be in His care, but who went their own way. From them was withdrawn the protections they had enjoyed, and Satan was permitted to harm them.

If the final penalty for sin consists of Satan killing all of his followers off, with God's permission, how does that make God look? It would make Him into a weak ruler, like a parent who lets the naughty child run the show. It would make God appear to be surrendered to Satan's means and methods, as if God could do nothing to stop the evil destroyer.

Now, if God actually wanted Satan to do such things, so that justice would be done to those who had not followed God's laws, then it makes God complicit with evil in having Satan as His sidekick, like partners in the game where one shows only his good side and leaves the dirty deeds to the other.

Such is simply not the case. Such a concept is heresy and anathema. It should not be so much as hinted at, much less taught as the truth. I'm speaking plainly, now. We have dealt with this same false doctrine with another formerly active member of this forum. We never did reach a resolution with that member, who seems to have finally withdrawn from participating here. If you are so taken by this theory, APL, as the other was, I'm afraid we will never come to agreement. You cannot hope to convince me that God uses Satan to do His dirty work. Either God does the work of cleansing this planet from sin Himself, taking final control of the situation as One of authority, or else Satan has been right all along that God's law is unjust. You can't have it both ways. God cannot be at once just and permissive. Either God is Judge or Satan is. It cannot be both.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green - - bending to fit our own personal opinions? Interesting. Christ died the second death, demonstrating how God is involved, to you the second death is something different. The whole sacrificial system was set up "to impress upon the fallen race the solemn truth that it was sin that caused death. {PP 68.1} " God is not the the cause of death. Transgressing His law is the cause of death. Sin was permitted because if the natural results of sinner were allowed to go to completion, the universe would not have understood that fact and would have served God in fear, not love.

As for Satan doing God's dirty work, he does not have to. Sin is already in the world. Its effects continue even is you take Satan out of the picture. Example, you said, But we have the example of the fiery serpents. Did Satan come down the made the serpents bite the people? No, he did not have to. What does the Bible say? Numbers 21:6 AKJV And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. This is a clear statement, is it not? The LORD did it! But we know that He did not. He removed His mighty, powerful hand, and the serpents bit. God's might power was manifested clearly to the people. Not because God "sent" the serpents, but that it was His power that sustained the people. God's power is clearly seen and it was understood by the people.

WHO said God is killing off all his followers? How then does Satan die? The answer is clear! Sin kills. "It is sin that causes death".

APL,

According to your view, how is it that our sins were upon Christ on the cross? How is it that today, by faith, our sins are transferred to Christ? And how is it that we are declared righteous when, in fact, we aren't righteous?

APL,

I would like to hear your explanation for how God "removed His protection" from Himself to "allow" Nadab & Abihu and Uzzah to die.

Either God did it, or God "allowed" Satan to inhabit God's most holy place and His ark of the covenant.

It is a weak God who cannot chase Satan away from His very presence or who uses Satan to do His dirty work.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

• "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." While it is a disgrace to sin, it is no disgrace to confess sin, and to forsake it, as the hateful thing it is,--that which caused the death of the only begotten Son of God. {RH, December 9, 1890 par. 4}

Jesus died the second death. Look to Jesus and understand how God is involved in the second death. Sin caused the death of Christ. Interesting also that she calls sin is a "thing".

Speaking of Miriam, EGW writes:

• He saw that the heart was leprous with sin, and he caused the plague of the heart to be revealed in the dreadful judgment of physical leprosy. As leprosy was sure death if permitted to take its natural course, so the leprosy of sin would destroy the soul unless the sinner received the healing of the grace of God. {ST, March 14, 1892 par. 8}

Interesting, sin destroys the soul, unless the sinner receives the healing of the grace of God. Grace is defined in the Bible here: Isaiah 53:11 and Titus 3:5-7. Sin will destroy the soul unless we are healed.

• Many think that repentance is a work which devolves wholly upon man, but this is an error. The Bible does not teach that man must repent before he comes to Christ. Repentance must precede forgiveness; but the sinner does not repent till he has faith in Christ as his mediator. Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. His love, shining from the cross, speaks eloquently of the sufferings of the only-begotten Son of God for fallen man. This love draws sinners to Him. The transgressor may resist this love; he may refuse to be drawn to Christ; but if he does not resist, he will be led to the foot of the cross, in repentance for the sins that caused the death of the Son of God. {ST, March 18, 1903 par. 1}

Again - sin is the cause of death, the second death, that Christ experienced. Romans 2:4 "Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and long-suffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?" Oh boy, but if you do not love Christ, He will burn you in hell. We need to understand how God is invoved with the second death. Christ clearly demonstrated this. Sin is the cause of death.

• Satan charged God with an unforgiving spirit, because he would not receive on terms of favor those who disobeyed his law and therefore misrepresented his character. But forgiveness of sins would be of no avail unless the course of transgression was abandoned, and the grace of Christ imparted to the sinner to renovate, purify, and ennoble him who had fallen by iniquity. This was the only way by which the sinner could be restored to divine favor, and trusted to come into copartnership with Jesus Christ. But in Christ we behold the character of the Father, and see the pitying tenderness which God exercised for fallen man, giving his only begotten Son as a ransom for the transgressors of the law. It is in beholding the love of God that repentance is awakened in the sinner's heart, and an earnest desire is created to become reconciled to God. When the transgressor becomes acquainted with God, and experiences his love, it produces in his heart a hatred for sin and a love for holiness. {RH, March 9, 1897 par. 4}

Again - salvation is healing. In Christ we see the true character of the Father. But boy oh boy, look out in the future... NOT. This is not saying that sinners will not experience the punishment of sin. They will. We need to understand how God is involved.

If you can say amen to these quotes, please explain this one to me according to your view:

Christ died because there was no other hope for the transgressor. He might try to keep God's law in the future; but the debt which he had incurred in the past remained, and the law must condemn him to death. Christ came to pay that debt for the sinner which it was impossible for him to pay for himself. Thus, through the atoning sacrifice of Christ, sinful man was granted another trial.” {RH, March 8, 1881 par. 4}

1) What is the debt?
2) How did Christ pay it?