APL,

It is possible that you are looking at the word "caused" too literally.

I have seen the "spice girls" (betelnut venders) in Taiwan cause accidents simply by their scanty apparel. A car stops in front of the "betelnut babe" to buy some of her wares, and another driver, distracted by the view of her, collides with the parked vehicle in front of him. Who caused the accident?

"Sin" did not literally cause Jesus' death. But it was sin which forced Him to thus yield His life to save us and to prove God's honor. "Sin" caused the separation between Jesus and His Father, the separation causing His heartbreak and ending His life. A chain reaction, perhaps. But there are direct and indirect causes. Sin was responsible, ultimately. But it is not as though "sin" were a self-standing identity of its own. What is "sin?" It is transgression of the law. The REAL cause of Jesus' death was mortal beings, e.g. Adam and Eve, transgressing God's law. But did Adam or Eve kill Jesus literally while He was upon the cross? They were not even alive at that time. Jesus was forced to yield His life in order to save them, constrained to do so by His own loving character. It is not "sin" as a material thing which caused Jesus' death, but as an abstract thing, a consequence of so much disobedience on our collective part. The real "second death" is not so much caused by sin as it is caused by separation from the Lifegiver. The Lifegiver must separate Himself from the sinner on account of the sin, for He cannot coexist with sin.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green in green. APL in blue. EGW in black and red
It is possible that you are looking at the word "caused" too literally.

I have seen the "spice girls" (betelnut venders) in Taiwan cause accidents simply by their scanty apparel. A car stops in front of the "betelnut babe" to buy some of her wares, and another driver, distracted by the view of her, collides with the parked vehicle in front of him. Who caused the accident? Absolutely sin is the cause of death in this instance. No question! Where does the "distraction" come from? Matthew 5:28 "But I say to you, That whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart." Where do these temptations come from? Sin! These things are in our nature.


"Sin" did not literally cause Jesus' death. I disagree - Sin literally caused the death of Christ.

Cease to cherish and excuse sin; for sin caused the death of the Son of God. {GW92 466.2}

Show what caused the death of Christ--the transgression of the law. {6T 54.1} (sin is transgression of the law, sin caused the death of Christ)

Calvary. What caused the death of Christ?--The transgression of the law. (the definition of sin!) Show that Christ died to give men an opportunity to become loyal subjects of his kingdom. {GCDB, March 2, 1899 par. 23}

It was sin that caused the death of God's dear Son, and sin is the transgression of the law. On him was laid the iniquities of us all. {1888 1074.1}

It was sin that caused the death of God's dear Son, and sin is the transgression of the law. Says the prophet: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. {ST, February 27, 1893 par. 4} (we do esteem Him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted. It is not true, but we sure to think it is God that did it!!!!)

Will not old and young in your island home seek the Lord? Will you not strive most earnestly for the crown of immortality? Will you not hate sin, and pray most earnestly that you may have a sense of its exceeding sinfulness? Will you not hate that which caused the death of the Majesty of heaven, the Son of God? {14MR 73.2}

Expel sin from your hearts; for sin caused the death of the Son of God. {RH, July 22, 1884 par. 9} (direct cause and effect. Sin causes death)

But it was sin which forced Him to thus yield His life to save us and to prove God's honor. "Sin" caused the separation between Jesus and His Father, the separation causing His heartbreak and ending His life. A chain reaction, perhaps. But there are direct and indirect causes. Sin was responsible, ultimately. But it is not as though "sin" were a self-standing identity of its own. OH - so sin is really not the problem, God is the problem. Sin does not really cause death. God is the cause of death because He hate sin, not because sin is ultimately the cause of death. Sorry - I do not agree. Sin pays its wage - DEATH.

What is "sin?" It is transgression of the law. The REAL cause of Jesus' death was mortal beings, e.g. Adam and Eve, transgressing God's law. If you idea that the "law" is a legal document, then perhaps I can accept your view. But the "law" is not a legal document. It is a design template of how all things, animate and inanimate operate. You violate that law, sin, you die. You can not change what God has created.

But did Adam or Eve kill Jesus literally while He was upon the cross? Sin did cause the death of Christ. Our sin literally caused the death of Christ, and will kill us if you are not healed of the disease. (Matthew 8:17). Sin is not some abstract concept. Sin is real, and physical. It is the literal corruption of our DNA. Romans 5:12 "Why, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed on all men..." What does a man pass to the next generation besides his knowledge/culture? 23 chromosomes in a protein cap. Nothing else; no cell nucleus, no golgi apparatus, no endoplasmic reticulum, no mitochrondria. Just DNA

They were not even alive at that time. Jesus was forced to yield His life in order to save them, constrained to do so by His own loving character. It is not "sin" as a material thing which caused Jesus' death, but as an abstract thing, a consequence of so much disobedience on our collective part. No, I can not agree that sin is abstract. I use to, but no longer. The evidence is to overwhelming that it is real. Sin is the cause of ALL suffering, disease, and death

The real "second death" is not so much caused by sin as it is caused by separation from the Lifegiver. The Lifegiver must separate Himself from the sinner on account of the sin, for He cannot coexist with sin. You have changed you theme here. Why? The evidence is that sin causes the separation. But now, you are saying that God causes the seperation. Wrong. Sin is the cause of the separation and maintains the separation.

The transgression of that law caused a fearful separation between God and man. To Adam in his innocency was granted communion, direct, free, and happy, with his Maker. After his transgression God would communicate to man through Christ and angels. {SR 50.3}

It was sin that separated man from his God, and it is sin that maintains this separation. {16MR 115.2}

What is my view? My view is the nature of sin has been misunderstood. EGW: "It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy." {GC 569.1} Obviously everyone understands the nature of sin, right? I don't think so. Green things sin is something abstract. The people of God should awaken to a keen perception of the grievous character of transgression. Sin is disguised, and many are deceived in regard to its nature. Satan has planned it thus, that the understanding may be clouded, the spiritual vision obscured, the perceptive faculties of the soul blunted.

What is sin? Sin is transgression of the law. What law, the 10C? The 10C were added BECAUSE of transgression, Galatians 3:19. What law then? God's Law - The incredibly complex way (laws of chemistry, biology, physicis etc. and the "blueprint" upon which they are assimilated) wherein god has made His creations to function. You can not violate these laws. Any violation of the laws of nature is a violation of the law of God. {1BC 1105.3} He has established the laws of nature, but His laws are not arbitrary exactions. Every "Thou shalt not," whether in physical or moral law, contains or implies a promise. If it is obeyed, blessings will attend our steps; if it is disobeyed, the result is danger and unhappiness. {5T 444.2} the laws of nature are the laws of God, {6T 369.1} God's law is written by His own finger upon every nerve, every muscle, every faculty which has been entrusted to man. {SpM 40.6}

Question 1: how is it our sins were upon Christ.
If sin is some abstract contruct, then it is hard for me to understand HOW Christ could take on our sin. But sin is real. It is a rewrite of what God has written. It is in our DNA. Christ came and took our nature in its fallen condition. See 1 Peter 2:24, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 1:3; 2:11-18. What we call "sins", such as coveting, adultery, stealing, these are symptoms of the "disease" sin. Treating symptoms will never cure a disease. You need to cure the cause of the symptoms. That cause is sin. And it is encoded in our DNA. (How many papers would you like?) All evidence is pointing me to that fact that ALL disease is caused by mobile genetic elements. Sin is to disease as cause and effect.

Question 2: How is it that today, by faith, or sins are "transferred" to Christ?
Christ took our sickness, Matthew 8:17. He cured it, Hebrews 1:3. By doing this, he is able to succor those that are tempted. Our behavior is only a symptom of the disease sin.

Question 3: And how is it that we are declared righteous when, in fact, we aren't righteous?
God can not lie, if we are declared righteous, it is because we are, it is the truth. We are not saved in our sins, but saved FROM our sin. We must meet the conditions laid down in the word of God or die in our sins. {5T 535.2} A Divine Remedy for Sin.--The atonement of Christ is not a mere skillful way to have our sins pardoned; it is a divine remedy for the cure of transgression and the restoration of spiritual health. It is the Heaven-ordained means by which the righteousness of Christ may be not only upon us but in our hearts and characters (Letter 406, 1906). {6BC 1074.2}. A legal pardon is insufficient to redeem. We must be born again, transformed, in our entire nature. see: {SC 43}.

These are the purchase of My blood, brands plucked from the burning." Those who rely upon Him in faith receive the comforting assurance: "Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment." All that have put on the robe of Christ's righteousness will stand before Him as chosen and faithful and true. Satan has no power to pluck them out of the hand of Christ.

Calvary. What caused the death of Christ?--The transgression of the law. Show that Christ died to give men an opportunity to become loyal subjects of his kingdom. {GCDB, March 2, 1899 par. 23}

He died to make an atonement, to redeem, cleanse, restore, and exalt man to a place at his right hand. {ST, February 27, 1893 par. 1}

Shall we think to be fitted for heaven, while indulging in sin? Only obedience to the requirements of God can elevate man to a place with Christ in his kingdom. {RH, October 9, 1888 par. 2}

APL,

Contemplate the following passage.



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green - I have. And it fits my view perfectly. The "curse of the law" - - the wages of sin is death. It is sin the causes death. It is sin that causes and maintains the separation from the Father. The law is immutable, and it is still immutable even after Christ's death. The wrath of God is clearly defined in Romans 1:24, 26 and 28. God gives them up, lets them go, hands them over. Freedom of choice demands this, the Father must do it, justice demands it. The death of a sinner is not execution by God. Christ took on our sins, literally, and the sins killed Him.

Consider this: In the sacrificial system, the sin were figuratively transferred to the earthly sanctuary by the blood of the sin offering. Our sins are in fact, transferred to the heavenly sanctuary by the blood of Christ. This is a fact, not a legal transfer.

APL,

?
To provide a physical healing for sin (which you claim to be the case), Christ didn't need to die. And He could have provided this for everybody, so that nobody would be lost. And He wouldn't be violating anybody's free will in healing all of us physically.

Rosangela, legal acquittal does not provide salvation either. Your legal model can not explain any of the diseases we see in the animal and plant realms. The healing model also is not just physical, for we need to develop trust in God in order to allow healing to take place. It is hard to trust someone who if you do not follow His advice, He will kill you.

Romans 5:10 We were God's enemies, but he made us his friends through the death of his Son. Now that we are God's friends, how much more will we be saved by Christ's life!

Romans 3:23-26 For all men sin and come short of the glory of God, 24 but by his mercy they are made upright for nothing, by the deliverance secured through Christ Jesus. 25 For God showed him publicly dying as a sacrifice of reconciliation to be taken advantage of through faith. This was to vindicate his own justice (for in his forbearance, God passed over men's former sins)— 26 to vindicate his justice at the present time, and show that he is upright himself, and that he makes those who have faith in Jesus upright also.

Romans 3:27-31 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is shut out. On what principle? What a man does? No, but whether a man has faith. 28 For we hold that a man is made upright by faith; the observance of the Law has nothing to do with it. 29 Does God belong to the Jews alone? Does he not belong to the heathen too? Of course he belongs to the heathen too; 30 there is but one God, and he will make the circumcised upright on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised upright because of theirs." 31 Is this using faith to overthrow law? Far from it. This confirms the Law.

EGW on perfection of the flesh, all from 2SM 32ff.
... All may now obtain holy hearts, but it is not correct to claim in this life to have holy flesh...
...If those who speak so freely of perfection in the flesh, could see things in the true light, they would recoil with horror from their presumptuous ideas... (I can say AMEN!!! - the science is very clear on the mess we have in the genome!!!)
...In this work we are to be laborers together with God. Much may be done to restore the moral image of God in man, to improve the physical, mental, and moral capabilities. Great changes can be made in the physical system by obeying the laws of God and bringing into the body nothing that defiles. And while we cannot claim perfection of the flesh, we may have Christian perfection of the soul...
...When human beings receive holy flesh, they will not remain on the earth, but will be taken to heaven. While sin is forgiven in this life, its results are not now wholly removed. It is at His coming that Christ is to "change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body" (Philippians 3:21). . . .

Mark 2:7-11 "Why does this man talk so? This is blasphemy. Who can forgive sins but God alone?" 8 Jesus, at once perceiving by his spirit that they were pondering over this, said to them, "Why do you ponder over this in your minds? 9 Which is easier, to say to this paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say to him, "Get up and pick up your mat and walk'? 10 But to let you know that the Son of Man has authority to forgive sins on earth," turning to the paralytic he said, 11 "I tell you, get up, pick up your mat, and go home!"

In this story, the forgiveness of sin and healing are the same. There are multiple aspect to the healing. Physical sin gives us all the temptations to sin. It codes for things Green spoke about above, the physical urges, the lusts, covetousness. It is built into our brains. Christ took on our nature, he was tempted in always as we are, yet never yielded to the temptations. EGW puts it this way: In taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. {1SM 256.1} And this: Christ bore the sins and infirmities of the race as they existed when He came to the earth to help man. In behalf of the race, with the weaknesses of fallen man upon Him, He was to stand the temptations of Satan upon all points wherewith man would be assailed.--The Review and Herald, July 28, 1874.

AT Jones puts it this way:
Now that is simply an illustration of this law of human nature. If man had remained where God put him and as He put him, the law would have worked directly and easily; since man has got out of harmony with it, it still works directly, but it hurts. Now that law of heredity reached from Adam to the flesh of Jesus Christ as certainly as it reaches from Adam to the flesh of any of the rest of us, for He was one of us. In Him there were things that reached Him from Adam; in Him there were things that reached Him from David, from Manasseh, from the genealogy away back from the beginning until His birth. {February 21, 1895 ATJ, GCB 266.7}


Thus in the flesh of Jesus Christ--not in Himself, but in His flesh--our flesh which He took in the human nature--there were just the same tendencies to sin that are in you and me. And when He was tempted, it was the "drawing away of these desires that were in the flesh." These tendencies to sin that were in His flesh drew upon Him and sought to entice Him, to consent to the wrong. But by the love of God and by His trust in God, he received the power and the strength and the grace to say, "No," to all of it and put it all under foot. And thus being in the likeness of sinful flesh He condemned sin in the flesh. {February 21, 1895 ATJ, GCB 266.8}

All the tendencies to sin that are in me were in Him, and not one of them was ever allowed to appear in Him. All the tendencies to sin that are in you were in Him, and not one of them was ever allowed to appear--every one was put under foot and kept there. All the tendencies to sin that are in the other man were in Him, and not one of them was ever allowed to appear. That is simply saying that all the tendencies to sin that are in human flesh were in His human flesh, and not one of them was ever allowed to appear; He conquered them all. And in Him we all have victory over them all. {February 21, 1895 ATJ, GCB 267.1}

John 14:30 I shall not talk much more with you, for the evil genius of the world is coming. He has nothing in common with me,... The sinful flesh was locked up, put underfoot, there was no longer anything left in Him that would respond to the devil.

Why not? Since human beings mortgaged themselves to Satan (TMK 84.3), he became the prince of this world, and brought ruin, desease and death to the whole creation.


I have all the explanations I need, but I don't see enough explanations in your model. Since Adam and Eve repented, God could have healed them, and all their children would have been born with a perfect body, as He first designed. Why didn't He do this?

Rosangela - - APL - EGW


Look at the reference you provided TMK 84. Take the whole paragraph:
This parable has a double significance, and applies not only to man seeking the kingdom of heaven, but to Christ seeking His lost inheritance. Through transgression man lost his holy innocence, and mortgaged himself to Satan. Christ, the only begotten Son of God, pledged Himself for the redemption of man, and paid the price of his ransom on the cross of Calvary. He left the worlds unfallen, the society of holy angels in the universe of heaven, for He could not be satisfied while humanity was alienated from Him. The heavenly Merchantman lays aside His royal robe and crown. Though the Prince and Commander of all heaven, He takes upon Him the garb of humanity, and comes to a world that is marred and seared with the curse, to seek for the one lost pearl, to seek for man fallen through disobedience. . . . {TMK 84.3} The thing that marrs and sears is SIN. Sin is the curse. Sin is the cause of ALL sickness, disease, and death.

...sin and disease bear to each other the relationship of cause and effect... disease is the result of sin and that it is the fallen foe who seeks to allure them to health-and-soul-destroying practices... His laws are not arbitrary exactions. Every "Thou shalt not," whether in physical or moral law, contains or implies a promise. If it is obeyed, blessings will attend our steps; if it is disobeyed, the result is danger and unhappiness. ... {5T 444.2} All sickness and disease is caused by sin.
There is much suffering in our world. To some suffering and disease have been transmitted as an inheritance. Others suffer because of accidents. Cause and effect are always in operation in our world, and always will be. The Lord has afflicted ones, dearly beloved in his sight, who bear the suffering of bodily infirmities. Their trials will not be greater than they can endure." {GCB, January 1, 1900 par. 14} A clear statement by EGW that some of the disease we experience is genetic. You said: "he became the prince of this world, and brought ruin, desease and death to the whole creation." as a result of a "legal" violation? Adam and Eve were sad by seeing a leaf die. It is sin that caused the leaf to die. Is Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV) a legal problem or a real problem? It is real. Does it cause disease? Yes. Cause and effect! Sin and disease bear to each other the relation of cause and effect. HIV causes disease. HIV is sin. I know, I know, this goes against the grain, because sin only a legal problem, it can't be real and physicial. HIV is a type of mobile genetic element. The more I read and study, all disease is caused by mobile genetic elements. ALL. Can I prove it? Not yet. But I can give you many examples. And the biggest target of mobile genetic elements are the genes that code for the CNS - central nervous system. This is the cause for temptations, altered neuroreceptors. The more we engages the behaviors these elements code for, the harder it is to stop.

You said "I have all the explanations I need, but I don't see enough explanations in your model. Since Adam and Eve repented, God could have healed them, and all their children would have been born with a perfect body, as He first designed. Why didn't He do this? " I could ask you the same question. Sin Adam and Eve repented, then why did all the disease continue? If sin was also just a legal problem, then Jesus could just as easily been killed when Herod tried to kill Him, and the legal requirements would have been fulfilled. But that would not have worked. Jesus had not yet fulfilled the requirements of Him mission. One of which was to destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8-9 He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Do you not see the genetic implications here? One of Christ's mission points was to destroy the works of the devil. Hebrews 1:3 when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Another point - it is a difficult matter to unwind the sin problem. Is it not as simple as clapping you hand, and presto, it is done. The sin problem challenged the Godhead to the upmost. It was an infinite price that was paid to solve the problem. I can show from the genetics how engrained, how deep the problem is. As EGW said of those profession the holy flesh movement, "If those who speak so freely of perfection in the flesh, could see things in the true light, they would recoil with horror from their presumptuous ideas" {2SM 32.2}. Other quotes to support the idea that salvation is not an easy task for God, That scene reveals to us the exceeding sinfulness of sin; it shows how hard a task it is, even for Infinite Power, to save the guilty from the consequences of transgressing the law of God. Jesus, looking down to the last generation, saw the world involved in a deception similar to that which caused the destruction of Jerusalem. {GC 23.1} Christ was the prince of sufferers; but it was not bodily anguish that filled him with horror and despair; it was a sense of the malignity of sin, a knowledge that man had become so familiar with sin that he did not realize its enormity, that it was so deeply rooted in the human heart as to be difficult to eradicate. {3SP 162.1} He came to us, and labored arduously to bring us back to the Father's house. {RH, August 14, 1888 par. 12}

It all somes back to Trusting God and accepting the healing He will provide.

?
But this is clear. There are a lot of diseases transmitted genetically. But this is not at all related to your view that sin is something physical. Disease is something physical, sin is something moral.


If there had been no sin there would have been no pain, no disease and no death - this is obvious. The law of entropy is at work in our planet, and even in the known universe - stars die. Also, if you use your body to commit a sin (smoking, drugs, illicit sex, etc.) you may experience physical consequences. But this is not related to your view that sin is something physical.


Not at all. Jesus had to die bearing our sin and the wrath of God against sin (i.e., the manifestation of His abhorrence of sin), and being killed as a child by Herod wouldn't do that.

I have a question for you: If Adam hadn't sinned, but had been prevented from eating from the tree of life, would he eventually had died or not?