APL,

EGW says that God withdrew His favor because He ceased to act as a father and was acting as a judge. And EGW says that Christ was standing under the condemnation of the Lawgiver. Why? Because God condemns sin. And why does He condemn sin? Because He hates sin - both because sin is the opposite of His nature and because sin harms His creatures. It's both things. Your view takes unilateral positions.

“But these are sins that are especially offensive to God; for they are contrary to the benevolence of His character, to that unselfish love which is the very atmosphere of the unfallen universe.” {FLB 60.3}


The quote says He had to suffer because He was standing in the sinner's place. The passage says nothing about cure. Cure may be one aspect (although I don't see it as being physical, like you), but it's not the whole of it. How do you explain passages like the following one?

“It was not a dread of the physical suffering he was soon to endure that brought this agony upon the Son of God. He was enduring the penalty of man's transgression, and shuddering beneath the Father's frown. He must not call his divinity to his aid, but, as a man, he must bear the consequences of man's sin and the Creator's displeasure toward his disobedient subjects. As he felt his unity with the Father broken up, he feared that his human nature would be unable to endure the coming conflict with the prince of the power of darkness; and in that case the human race would be irrecoverably lost, Satan would be victor, and the earth would be his kingdom. The sins of the world weighed heavily upon the Saviour and bowed him to the earth; and the Father's anger in consequence of that sin seemed crushing out his life.” {3SP 95.3}

So since sin is the opposite of His character, He will do what sin does and torture and kill those that engage in sin. Make no sense.

Look at Gethsemane, Christ was suffering under the weight of the sin of the world. What was God doing? The unity was breaking up - why? SIN. Christ was MADE to be sin who knew no sin, 2 Corinthians 5:21. He bore our sin IN HIS BODY on the tree, 1 Peter 2:24. I take the Bible as it reads. Yes, God hates sin. Because it destroys His creation.

The physical part of crucifixion was minimal compared to what sin did to Him.

What are the wages of sin? Why are those sin's wages? What is sin?

Sin is transgression of God's law. It is the law that requires death of the sinner. The law is a revelation of God's character. So God's own character requires the death of the sinner. It's as simple as that.





Yes, that's a good place to look for the truth.



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Those are the questions!!
1)What are the wages of sin? - DEATH
2)WHY are those sin's wages? Because sin caused death
3)What is sin - transgression of the law!

Question to you - WHAT LAW? What is God's Law? Is God's Law Arbitrary? Are the consequences of breaking God's law Extrinsic or Intrinsic?

I fully agree!!!

How does God punish sin? - - He lets the sinner recieve the intrinsic consequences, He withdraws, He lets them go, He gives them up, he "hides His face".

God will not violate His own law. He can't. God is not a murderer. When you refuse to partake of the atonement, you will die. Intrinsic consequences.

God destroys sin. Those who cling to sin will be destroyed with it.

Now APL, if you see someone drawning and just fold your arms, or go away, does this mean you aren't violating God's law?

You examples does not fit. Or else, we could accuse God of doing nothing when a woman is brutally raped and murdered, or a child is abused.

In the plan of redemption, all stops and been removed. An infinite work was and is being done to save us from our sins. EGW in The Great Controversy, said that it is Satan's constant effort to 1) misrepresent the character of God, 2) the nature of sin, and 3) the real issues at stake in the great controversy. God is made out to be a lair, or a severe judge, and exacting creditor. The nature of sin is that is kills, it destroys. And the real issues are do you have freedom under God's law? In the end, sin will be destroys. When God takes sinner off "life support", they will die. God must let go, because His law demands it. Sinners must have their freedom, they must have what they have freely chosen. And the end result is death.

EJ Waggoner:
Sin and death are therefore inseparable. Where one is found, there is the other. To save from sin is to save from death. Salvation does not mean simply deliverance from the consequences of sin, but from sin itself. The plan of salvation is not, as some have supposed, a scheme by which people are free to sin as much as they please, in the confidence that a profession of faith will save them from the just desert of their wrong-doing. On the contrary, it is a plan for the utter freeing of the man from sin, so there will be no cause of death. As there can be no death without sin, so there can be no life without righteousness. {October 6, 1892 EJW, PTUK 307.7}

Other EJ Waggoner quotes:
We have found that Rom. 5:12, teaches that sin is the cause of death. {December 22, 1859 UrSe, ARSH 33.13}

Death has come upon all men, because all have rejected the Word of the Lord, the Source of life. Jesus Christ is the Word (John 1: I), and He is the life (John 1: 4; 14: 6). So it is by giving men Himself that He saves them from sin and death. We are saved by His life. Rom. 5: 10. His life is the power that conquers death, and it conquers death because it is proof against sin, which is the cause of death. "There is no unrighteousness in Him." His name is Jesus, Saviour, because He is in Himself salvation. {March 23, 1899 EJW, PTUK 177.5}

According to the testimony presented, man, by his transgression, involved his posterity in death. APL: how is it that Adam's posterity is involved in death? The thing that Adam passed to the next generation is His genes. It is genetic. It reaches all humans.

AT Jones:
Thus you can see that life and righteousness must come from one source, precisely as death and sin came from one source. And that source must be not myself. Neither sin nor death entered the world by me, but by that one man. There is the means, though not the source. The source, of course, is in the one who stood back of the man, and persuaded him to go that way; that is, Satan. So Satan is really the cause of sin and death, while that one man is the channel through which he plunged this upon the world. On the other hand, God alone is the source of life and righteousness; and that one man, Christ Jesus,—the last Adam,—is the channel through whom life and righteousness are poured upon the world, in abundance, even to "all the fullness of God." {October 16, 1900 ATJ, ARSH 659.3} APL: Sin is the cause of all death. Sin entered the world by one man, and pass it on to his posterity. How is this done? "the great law of heredity".

This body is a "body of death" simply because it is a "body of sin." Rom. 6:6; 7:24.{December 1894 ATJ, HOMI 25.9} APL: This is not a nebulous ill-defined statement.

"There is no prevention of disease without stifling the cause of disease. Wherever sin exists, its works itself out finally in sickness and death. {August 14, 1907 ATJ, MEDM 260.10}

"AND the Word was made flesh." {January 22, 1901 ATJ, ARSH 56.1}
"When the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman." Gal. 4:4. {January 22, 1901 ATJ, ARSH 56.2}
"And the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:6. {January 22, 1901 ATJ, ARSH 56.3}
We have seen that, in His being made of a woman, Christ reached sin at the very fountain head of its entrance into this world; and that He must be made of a woman to do this. {January 22, 1901 ATJ, ARSH 56.4}
And thus all the sin of this world, from its origin in the world to the end of it in the world, was laid upon Him; both sin as it is in itself and sin as it is when committed by us; sin in its tendency, and sin in the act; sin as it is hereditary in us, uncommitted by us, and sin as it is committed by us. {January 22, 1901 ATJ, ARSH 56.5}
Only thus could it be that there should be laid upon Him the iniquity of us all. Only by His subjecting himself to the law of heredity could He reach beyond the generation living in the world while He was here. Without this there could be laid upon Him our sins which have been actually committed, with the guilt and condemnation that belong to them. But, beyond this, there is in each person, in many ways, the liability, to sin, inherited from generations back, which has not yet culminated in the act of sinning, but which is ever ready, when occasion offers, but which is ever ready, when occasion offers, to blaze forth in the actual committing of sin. David's great sin is an illustration of this. Ps. 51:3; 2 Sam. 11:2. {January 22, 1901 ATJ, ARSH 56.6}
In delivering us from sin, it is not enough that we shall be saved from the sins that we have actually committed; we must be saved from committing other sins. And that this may be so, there must be met and subdued this hereditary liability to sin: we must become possessed of power to keep us from sinning—a power to conquer this liability, this hereditary tendency that is in us, to sin. {January 22, 1901 ATJ, ARSH 56.7} APL: It is in the genes.

Thus, both by heredity and by imputation, He was "laden with the sins of the world." And, thus laden, at this immense disadvantage, He passed over the ground where, at no shadow of any disadvantage whatever, the first pair failed. {January 22, 1901 ATJ, ARSH 56.15}
By His death He paid the penalty of all sins actually committed, and thus can justly bestow His righteousness upon all who will receive it. And by condemning sin in the flesh, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity. He delivers from the law of heredity; and so can, in righteousness, impart His divine nature and power to lift above that law, and hold above it, every soul that will receive Him. {January 22, 1901 ATJ, ARSH 56.16} APL: It is in the genes.

This is to give courage to men in the lowest condition of life. It is to show that the power of the Gospel of the grace of God can triumph over heredity. {October 17, 1895 EJW, SITI 643.41}

Now Jesus came according to the flesh at the end of that line of mankind. And there is such a thing as heredity. You and I have traits of character or cut of feature that have come to us from away back--perhaps not from our own father, perhaps not from a grandfather, but from a great-grandfather away back in the years. And this is referred to in the law of God: "Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments." {February 21, 1895 ATJ, GCB 266.4}

That "like produces like" is a good law, a righteous law. It is a law of God, and though the law be transgressed, it still does the same. Transgression of the law does not change the law, whether it be moral or physical. The law works when it is transgressed, through the evil that is incurred, just as it would have worked in righteousness always if no evil had ever been incurred. If man had remained righteous always, as God made him, his descent would have been in the right line. When the law was transgressed, the descent followed on the wrong line, and the law worked in the crooked way, by its being perverted. {February 21, 1895 ATJ, GCB 266.5}

It is a good law which says that everything shall have a tendency to go toward the center of the earth. We could not get along in the world without that law. It is that which holds us upon the earth and enables us to walk and move about upon it. And yet if there be a break between us and the earth, if our feet slip out from under us or if we be on a high station, a pinnacle, and it breaks and the straight connection with the earth is broken between us and it, why, the law works and it brings us down with a terrible jolt, you know. Well, the same law that enables us to live and move and walk around upon the earth as comfortably as we do, which works so beneficially while we act in harmony with it, that law continues to work when we get out of harmony with it and it works as directly as before--but it hurts. {February 21, 1895 ATJ, GCB 266.6}

Now that is simply an illustration of this law of human nature. If man had remained where God put him and as He put him, the law would have worked directly and easily; since man has got out of harmony with it, it still works directly, but it hurts. Now that law of heredity reached from Adam to the flesh of Jesus Christ as certainly as it reaches from Adam to the flesh of any of the rest of us, for He was one of us. In Him there were things that reached Him from Adam; in Him there were things that reached Him from David, from Manasseh, from the genealogy away back from the beginning until His birth. {February 21, 1895 ATJ, GCB 266.7}

Thus in the flesh of Jesus Christ--not in Himself, but in His flesh--our flesh which He took in the human nature--there were just the same tendencies to sin that are in you and me. And when He was tempted, it was the "drawing away of these desires that were in the flesh." These tendencies to sin that were in His flesh drew upon Him and sought to entice Him, to consent to the wrong. But by the love of God and by His trust in God, he received the power and the strength and the grace to say, "No," to all of it and put it all under foot. And thus being in the likeness of sinful flesh He condemned sin in the flesh. {February 21, 1895 ATJ, GCB 266.8}

Heredity. It is in the genes.

Now Jesus came according to the flesh at the end of that line of mankind. And there is such a thing as heredity. You and I have traits of character or cut of feature that have come to us from away back--perhaps not from our own father, perhaps not from a grandfather, but from a great-grandfather away back in the years. And this is referred to in the law of God: "Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments." {February 21, 1895 ATJ, GCB 266.4}

That "like produces like" is a good law, a righteous law. It is a law of God, and though the law be transgressed, it still does the same. Transgression of the law does not change the law, whether it be moral or physical. The law works when it is transgressed, through the evil that is incurred, just as it would have worked in righteousness always if no evil had ever been incurred. If man had remained righteous always, as God made him, his descent would have been in the right line. When the law was transgressed, the descent followed on the wrong line, and the law worked in the crooked way, by its being perverted. {February 21, 1895 ATJ, GCB 266.5}

It is a good law which says that everything shall have a tendency to go toward the center of the earth. We could not get along in the world without that law. It is that which holds us upon the earth and enables us to walk and move about upon it. And yet if there be a break between us and the earth, if our feet slip out from under us or if we be on a high station, a pinnacle, and it breaks and the straight connection with the earth is broken between us and it, why, the law works and it brings us down with a terrible jolt, you know. Well, the same law that enables us to live and move and walk around upon the earth as comfortably as we do, which works so beneficially while we act in harmony with it, that law continues to work when we get out of harmony with it and it works as directly as before--but it hurts. {February 21, 1895 ATJ, GCB 266.6}

Now that is simply an illustration of this law of human nature. If man had remained where God put him and as He put him, the law would have worked directly and easily; since man has got out of harmony with it, it still works directly, but it hurts. Now that law of heredity reached from Adam to the flesh of Jesus Christ as certainly as it reaches from Adam to the flesh of any of the rest of us, for He was one of us. In Him there were things that reached Him from Adam; in Him there were things that reached Him from David, from Manasseh, from the genealogy away back from the beginning until His birth. {February 21, 1895 ATJ, GCB 266.7}

Thus in the flesh of Jesus Christ--not in Himself, but in His flesh--our flesh which He took in the human nature--there were just the same tendencies to sin that are in you and me. And when He was tempted, it was the "drawing away of these desires that were in the flesh." These tendencies to sin that were in His flesh drew upon Him and sought to entice Him, to consent to the wrong. But by the love of God and by His trust in God, he received the power and the strength and the grace to say, "No," to all of it and put it all under foot. And thus being in the likeness of sinful flesh He condemned sin in the flesh. {February 21, 1895 ATJ, GCB 266.8}

Heredity. It is in the genes. If it is in the genes, can it be identified? Today, I think we can have a glimps of what the problem is, and it is horrendous. Nothing we can do of ourselves could ever remedy the problem. Thankfully, where sin abounds, grace abounds more.

You agree that God will execute judgment upon the sinner, but believe that He will not kill them Himself as this would make Him a murderer. This means that you do not understand what is meant in the Bible by the term "murder." That is a good study, but better for another thread. If there is not one already on this topic, perhaps it could be started as a new thread.

If you believe that if God were ever to kill anyone it would make Him a murderer, then He already is a murderer. You have yet to explain why God would have allowed Satan to be in the Most Holy Place, inhabited by God Himself, to kill Nadab and Abihu. Oh...I suppose you would say it was their sin that killed them. Then why did not Eve die instantly when she ate the forbidden fruit?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.