Green, am I so dull in my writing or are you so dull in your understanding? I don't know.... Did I EVER say Satan killed Nadab and Abihu? If so, please, quote it. I never said such a thing. WHY do you keep bring up false implications?

If a person jumps in front of a moving train, and they are killed, is the train or the engineer of the train a murderer or a killer? No. You have God actively killing Nadab and Abihu. I don't. They were killed when they came in unconsecrated and drunk into the presence of the Lord. God is a consuming fire. No one can see His face and live. Nadab and Abihu knew all this. And yet the ventured where they should not have. The same as waking into the core of a nuclear reactor.

You have also taken the usual tack of defining kill as murder. Sorry, I've been round and round on this and killing is killing. I may post more on this later...

• God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1}

So, God does not use force, compelling power. Is execution not a use of force???

• Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Malachi 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezekiel 28:6-19; Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. {DA 763.4}
  
  This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}
  
  At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}

How much clearer can it be? The wages of sin is death. Death is caused by sin. Cause and effect.

APL,

Perhaps neither was I dull in my understanding nor you in your writing. Perhaps you are just not freshened up on your Bible memory. I'm sure you have learned these things, but probably have let some of the details slip over time without having reviewed them.

Here are some of the details behind my prior post that you may not have recalled. Understanding these details is important to understanding the points I was trying to make.



This does not say that "sin" devoured them. It says that "fire from the LORD" did. As you said, God is a consuming fire. But let's look at another account of this now.



That Nadab and Abihu were not destroyed for having entered the Most Holy Place seems clear from the fact that they were "devoured...in the sight of the people." The people could not have seen them had they been inside the Most Holy Place. The presence of the Lord was in the MHP, and from thence came God's fire to destroy them.

Remember, there was no such thing as "common fire" anywhere inside the Holy Place or Most Holy Place. The only place they could have found "common fire" was outside of the Holy Places, out where the people could see them. It was there that they must have kindled the fire in their censers and added the incense to it.



She tells us that they were consumed for using "strange fire," not for entering the Most Holy Place, neither were they consumed for being intoxicated. They had transgressed the direct command of God to use the sacred flame, the holy fire. In fact, it was after this event that God commanded ministering priests to refrain from the use of intoxicating wine. The command had not been given previous to this. The wine had obstructed their judgment and had removed their inhibitions toward sinning as they did.

No, APL, you may not have said that Satan killed them. But you said that God did not do so. And the Bible says that God did do so. If you believe that God did not, then who? I was suggesting Satan as the next best alternative.

Sin does not itself kill the sinner. In fact, had Adam and Eve been permitted to continue eating of the fruit of the Tree of Life, we would to this day have immortal sinners. So much for sin causing the death of the sinner. (But we've gone the rounds on this too, I suppose.)

In my mind, then, we have a logical disconnect with your attempts to reason that sin does the destroying by itself. Yes, sin destroys character. Yes, an evil character cannot stand in the day of judgment. Yes, ultimately it is sin to blame for the destruction of the sinner, for he or she must lose life on account of it, though not by it. God causes the loss of life. God destroys the sinner Himself on account of the sin.



Ellen White is clear, if the Bible is not sufficient, that God destroyed them.

This is one study where the prepositions mean much. It is a study where if prepositions are lightly used, the meaning can be twisted to something that is no longer correct.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

It is interesting how you change the story. You said, "neither were they consumed for being intoxicated.". EGW says, "Aaron's sons, who officiated in holy things, would not have thus transgressed if they had not indulged freely in the use of wine, and were partially intoxicated." So if they were not intoxicated, they would not have transgressed. They were consumed because of transgression, and you say it was not because they were intoxicated. Sorry, their intoxication as EGW says, directly contributed to their death. Nadab and Abihu came into the sanctuary with their own fire, their own righteousness. God is a consuming fire. Sin can not come in close contact with God, it will destroy the sinner. As EGW says, the glory of Him who is love, will destroy the sinner. Cause and effect. Sin kills. This is why sin is so horrible.

These men had come before the Lord with their own fire, their own righteousness. They were making a fundamental statement of intent to stand on their own and in defiance of God’s righteousness as their only covering they boldly try to come before Him on their own merits. God honors their final choice in the matter, and we have then a dramatic example of the withdrawal of His word, the fire of the Holy Spirit, from them, and they are “consumed,” not in a physical rapid oxidation from great heat, but they die immediately by the cessation of God’s sustaining power within their being.

Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of His mouth and be destroyed with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8. Like Israel of old the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire {GC 37.1} This statement is in the chapter on the destruction of Jerusalem, which is a direct testimony on the consequences of sin. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

APL,

The word of the Lord is clear: "God consumed them by fire."

Your words are in opposition to this clear "thus saith the Lord."

I think it is best to let this subject drop. If you do not understand the clearest of statements from the pen of inspiration, and attempt to reason away their intended meaning, to rearrange them to suit your own position, we can never hope to find agreement.

Was their intoxication a transgression? No. Did it lead to their transgression? Certainly. Was it for intoxication that God killed them? No. The word of the Lord is again clear: they were killed for having put strange fire into their censers. That was their transgression.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

"GOD CONSUMED THEM BY FIRE". Let's see, what kind of fire would the be? Leviticus 10:4-5 And Moses called Mishael and Elzaphan, the sons of Uzziel the uncle of Aaron, and said to them, Come near, carry your brothers from before the sanctuary out of the camp. 5 So they went near, and carried them in their coats out of the camp; as Moses had said. Interesting fire. The clothes were still intact.

Who is forgetting what? Numbers 21:6 KJV And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. Numbers 21:6 TCW The Lord heard their complaints and decided to stop their criticisms by removing the restraint that He had placed on the poisonous snakes in that area. The snakes made their way into the camp, struck the Israelites and many of them died.

Did God "send the serpents"? Nope. And there is the story of Job.

God was the "fire" in the burning bush. The bush was not damaged or consumed either. God can consume when He chooses (e.g. the stones of Elijah's watered-down altar) or leave intact when He chooses, like the burning bush. The fact that a "fire" killed Nadab and Abihu and yet they were not "burned" is all the more proof of the nature of this Fire. It was clearly God who killed them.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Does God kill - this is an issue of the great controversy over God's government. "...tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin. {GC 492.1}"

God requires perfection of His children. His law is a transcript of His own character, and it is the standard of all character. This infinite standard is presented to all that there may be no mistake in regard to the kind of people whom God will have to compose His kingdom. The life of Christ on earth was a perfect expression of God's law, and when those who claim to be children of God become Christlike in character, they will be obedient to God's commandments. Then the Lord can trust them to be of the number who shall compose the family of heaven. Clothed in the glorious apparel of Christ's righteousness, they have a place at the King's feast. They have a right to join the blood-washed throng. {COL 315.1}

Within this truth lies something of the greatest importance. A transcription is the rewriting of something former in a new location. It does not matter whether you read the former or the latter, for the message will be the same. Inasmuch as God does what He does because of who He is, the law, being what God is, is the guide to His behavior. God will not do anything that is not in His character. Therefore, He will do nothing that is contrary to the law.

It is so natural and easy to think of the law as something that God decreed as being His wishes for our deportment but which has little or no bearing upon His own conduct. We tend to think this way because of our familiarity with human lawmakers. Professedly, in modern democracies, the same laws made to control the behaviour of the citizenry are to be obeyed by the rulers who make them. But of late the cover has been lifted to reveal that this is not so. With increasing frequency the rulers get away with breaking the laws they create. Then, when they are found out, they do not suffer the same penalties imposed upon the individual in the street who is accused of the same crimes.

The more absolute the ruler is the more open and obvious is this practice of making laws for the people that are not in any sense for the monarch. This is not so in God’s government. His law is first of all His very own character. As such, it is the revelation of the way in which He will act under all circumstances. Then He simply calls upon us to behave as He does.

For I am the LORD your God. You shall therefore consecrate yourselves, and you shall be holy; for I am holy (Leviticus 11:44).

Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect (Matthew 5:48).

If you are the children of God you are partakers of His nature, and you cannot but be like Him. Every child lives by the life of his father. If you are God’s children, begotten by His Spirit, you live by the life of God. In Christ dwells “all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” (Colossians 2:9); and the life of Jesus is made manifest “in our mortal flesh” (2 Corinthians 4:11). That life in you will produce the same character … as it did in Him. {MB 77.3}

The areas of dispute in regard to God’s behavior surface in respect to the commandments “Thou shalt not kill,” “Thou shalt not steal,” and “Thou shalt not bear false witness.”

We know that death was not present until sin entered the world, bringing death with it. Therefore, we can know with certainty that God never once raised His powerful arm to take the life even of the minutest organism in His vast realm. Nor did He ever act deceitfully, or retrieve by force, or steal back that which He had given to any one of His creatures.

But it is contended that the fall brought about a circumstance which required that the Lord take decisive action to cut the sedition short and preserve the entire universe from corruption.

Most have no problem with the idea that the natural consequence of the rebellion against His word was the introduction of decay and death through separation from the source of Life. Yet many statements will surely occur in your mind, especially from the Old Testament, where it appears that God did come down and, by the direct and personal exercise of His mighty power, destroy, sometimes with great cruelty, thousands of people. We will later deal with many of these incidents. For now we wish to consider the nature of His character in the original kingdom and what this implies.

To recognize that God never destroyed before there was sin, and to accept the idea that He has destroyed after its emergence, is to believe that He has changed. It is to admit that with Him, of whom it is written that there is no variableness, there has been a variation. It is to believe that God respected the law in one way before iniquity arose, and then in a different and opposite way thereafter, and when sin is ended that He will return to the original pattern.

Just now you may feel disposed to discontinue the pursuance of the arguments here because they are so contrary to what you have formerly believed. We agree that they are contrary, for they are Christ’s teachings, and He came to present “to men that which was exactly contrary to the representations of the enemy in regard to the character of God” {FE 177.1}

Consideration must now be given to the way in which God keeps the law. God recognizes that if obedience to His law has to be compelled, then He would have a form of government that was short of perfection. But He will have nothing that is anything less than the ideal. He is determined on this, for He will not be content with anything less than the ultimate in happiness and prosperity for His subjects. Therefore, in God’s kingdom no force is ever employed to bring about allegiance to Him or to put down rebellion. We can be certain of this, for it is plainly written that it is so.

God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers … but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan’s government. The Lord’s principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. {DA 759}

The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God’s government; He desires only the service of love and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. {DA 22}

Earthly kingdoms rule by the ascendancy of physical power; but from Christ’s kingdom every carnal weapon, every instrument of coercion, is banished. {AA 12}

It needs to be fixed in our minds that because the exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God and His government, under no circumstances will He use force to solve any problem.

In the Old Testament, God’s actions seem to say that He did use compelling power to achieve His righteous ends, that He did resort to force to put down rebellion, and that He did make an example of some by crushing them with terrible punishments that were often fatal.

The choice of belief between the declarations of God and the appearances of what God did in the human arena is before every person. The greater proportion choose to believe what they think they see rather than what God has said. Therefore, the almost universal belief is that God does use force, that He exterminates whole nations who have utterly rejected Him, and that He relies on compelling power to put down rebellion.

Without question, the witness of sight and circumstances is very powerful. When the Old Testament stories are read wherein it is reported that God rained fire and brimstone on the Sodomites; that He poured forth the waters of the flood until the wicked were all drowned; and so on, it is easy and natural to believe that God was personally resorting to the weapons of force.

God’s actions are so perfect and infallible that He experiences no need to turn to the use of force. There has been an aptness to conclude that there is only one possible interpretation of the Old Testament incidents. There is a second way to understand what happens in the events. It will be found that there are vital differences between what the Lord appears to have done and what He really did.

The fact that any use of force is contrary to the principles of God’s government and to the purpose and nature of God’s law.

This vital aspect is one of freedom, one of the most precious gifts ever given by God to His subjects. God has no intention of using compelling power to enforce the observance of His law, then as certainly has He set his creatures absolutely free to serve Him or not to serve Him. The two are consistent with and inseparable from each other.

This is not to be understood as stating that the Lord gave His creatures freedom to sin with impunity. There is a doctrine abroad that paints God as being so sweetly loving that He will excuse and protect all sin and sinners rather than see anyone perish. That doctrine is not to be confused with the positions taken here. The sinner will die. The heavens and earth will be destroyed, and the entire universe will be rendered clean from the stain of sin. But it will not be God who wields the scourge of destruction to effect this. Rather, He will first have warned every created being of the terrible consequences attendant on choosing to take the path of disobedience. Then, when they do, He will expend every effort to save them from it, and only when they reject His saving effort, will He finally leave them to perish.

The law of love being the foundation of the government of God, the happiness of all created beings depended upon their perfect accord with its great principles of righteousness. God desires from all His creatures the service of love―homage that springs from an intelligent appreciation of His character. He takes no pleasure in a forced allegiance, and to all He grants freedom of will, that they may render Him voluntary service. {GC 493}

Observe the relationship between rendering to God a service of love based upon an intelligent conviction of God’s justice and goodness and the granting to each of perfect and complete freedom to obey or not. Interestingly, the exercise of that freedom in the wrong direction immediately deprives a person of liberty, for sin is a cruel taskmaster that forces its subjects into service. It is not God who deprives of the freedom, but it is the work of sin and Satan.

Just so soon as any element of compulsion, such as the threat of punishment, is introduced, then to that extent will there be a service motivated by fear. God’s subjects would then obey Him because they were afraid not to. God can never accept this form of obedience. He knows that such a kingdom cannot be blessed with flawless happiness and fullness of joy.

Thus in the kingdom of God, perfectly and fully established, there is no question of the service rendered being real or feigned. It can only be genuine. Thus God will have in eternity’s coming perfection what every earthly monarch through all time has craved―the total and loving loyalty of every one of His people. No kingdom has ever been like this. Earthly kingdoms always tend to servitude in one form or another, seeking to hold the loyalty of their citizens with the threat of punishment for disobedience. No crime is considered worse than treason, disloyalty to the state.

Jesus Christ does not come to transfer the sinner from one form of bondage to another. God’s object in Christ is to restore the kingdom to its original perfection, the perfection of complete freedom to serve God.

The problem is that God will resurrect the wicked and put them in His presence, knowing that His glory will kill them. As I said in other discussions, it's the same as putting someone in the gas chamber and then discussing if you are killing the person with the gas or delivering up the person to be killed by the gas.


God is the Lawgiver. He made laws for His creatures, not for Himself. He is above law and is not subject to it, in the same way a mother is not subject to the law to not touch the stove she establishes for her three-year older, and the father is not subject to the law to not drive the car he establishes for his 15-year-older.

"Before He came they were under a yoke; but Christ was above law, He was the originator of the law, so there was no yoke upon Him; and the angels were in obedience to Christ, who was not under the yoke." {1SAT 108.2}

The Son of God came voluntarily to accomplish the work of atonement. There was no obligatory yoke upon Him, for He was independent and above all law. The angels, as God's intelligent messengers, were under the yoke of obligation; no personal sacrifice of theirs could atone for the guilt of fallen man. Christ alone was free from the claims of the law to undertake the redemption of the sinful race. . . . {FLB 199.3}

God desires all men to be saved, but there are circumstances in which there is no longer any possibility to save them. However, although they themselves can no longer be saved, they can cause many others to be lost. If by removing the life of incorrigible sinners God can avoid that those who can still be saved be lost, what do you think God should do?

“[God] cuts off those who are determined upon rebellion, that they may not lead others to ruin. ... It was the mercy of God that thousands should suffer, to prevent the necessity of visiting judgments upon millions. In order to save the many, He must punish the few.” {PP 325}

“The Lord does not delight in vengeance, though he executes judgment upon the transgressors of his law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some, he must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. Says the prophet Isaiah: ‘The Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work, and bring to pass his act, his strange act.’ The work of wrath and destruction is indeed a strange, unwelcome work for Him who is infinite in love. {ST, August 24, 1882}

On the other hand, if those who are already lost are wholly given into the merciless power of the arch rebel as he degrades their quality of life to that of a living death - what is the loving, humane thing for God to do?

“Thus the Lord reveals to the whole human family that it is possible to go so far in sin and disgraceful transgression of His law, that it becomes necessary for Him to limit human life, and interpose in His wrath to prevent their spoiling one another in continual disobedience and defiance of His law." {21MR 65.2}