If the existence of immortal sinners was possible (and both the Bible and EGW say it was), how is it that sin physically kills? Sin kills because it separates sinners from the source of life.

There must be a better way of expressing your thought here, Johann. The way that rendition comes to my mind it is to say that Jesus became a sinner on the cross. Is that what you meant?

(You're seeming to say that Jesus forsook God, not the other way around as per the first sentence.)

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Yes, APL, those concepts are correct. Sin is the reason for incurring the death penalty, but it is not the cause of death. Sin puts the sinner on death row, to await judgment at the hands of the judge/executor of justice. And who is that judge?

Revelation chapters 5 & 6 give us the details. Jesus is the Judge. He is the only one worthy to open the book and to loose the seven seals. And what does this entail?



God tells us many times in the Bible that vengeance is His, and that He will repay. The book of Revelation gives us more of the details about this. There will come a time when God will finally execute justice and judgment in a way which has never before been seen. But He will not do this before such a time as the entire watching universe will be in agreement with such final action.

Each individual has opportunity now to decide which side he or she will take; whether the devil's, or whether God's. God does not force this choice, for His government is not one of force. But once everyone has made this decision, and once the entire universe has come to see God's fairness and mercy in doing so, God will bring judgment and end the experiment with sin forever.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Yes yes Green - the "wrath of the LAMB". How baaaaaad can it be?

You are right - EXECUTION is not an exercise of force. Right...

NO. It is sin that causes the separation from God, and it is sin that maintains it. Sin is the cause of death. It is sin that caused the death of Jesus.

Why was sin permitted? Because of the natural consequences of sin were allowed to proceed, it would had destroyed Satan. The on looking universe would not have understood this fact. The first time this was clearly demonstrated was with the death of Christ. God destroy no man. Yes Green and Rosangela have God as the executioner. Satan is the destroyer. He is the AUTHOR of sin. God is the restorer. If you reject God, He will let you have your way. The wages of sin is death. Sin pays its wage. Sin brings forth death, not execution by God.

God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

As Christ hung on the cross, bearing the taunts and revilings of His persecutors, He might appropriately have asked, Which of you convicteth Me of sin? It was a marvel to the angelic beings that He did not seal the lips of the scoffers and paralyze the hand that smote Him. It was a mystery to them that He did not flash forth His righteous indignation upon the hardened and corrupt soldiers, as they mocked Him and forced a crown of thorns on His head. (a true revelation of the character of God) {12MR 394.3}

It was generally believed by the Jews that sin is punished in this life. Every affliction was regarded as the penalty of some wrongdoing, either of the sufferer himself or of his parents. It is true that all suffering results from the transgression of God's law, but this truth had become perverted. Satan, the author of sin and all its results, had led men to look upon disease and death as proceeding from God,(as has been claimed in this thread)--as punishment arbitrarily inflicted on account of sin. Hence one upon whom some great affliction or calamity had fallen had the additional burden of being regarded as a great sinner. {DA 471.1}

Thus the way was prepared for the Jews to reject Jesus. He who "hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows" was looked upon by the Jews as "stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted;" and they hid their faces from Him. Isaiah 53:4, 3. {DA 471.2}

God had given a lesson designed to prevent this. The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ. {DA 471.3}

It is God who holds in his hands the destiny of souls. He will not always be mocked; he will not always to trifled with. Already his judgments are in the land. Fierce and awful tempests leave destruction and death in their wake. The devouring fire lays low the desolate forest and the crowded city. Storm and ship-wreck await those who journey upon the deep. Accident and calamity threaten all who travel upon the land. Hurricanes, earthquakes, sword, and famine follow in quick succession. Yet the hearts of men are hardened. They recognize not the warning voice of God. They will not flee to the only refuge from the gathering storm. (who brings on the calamities? God?) {ST, September 10, 1885 par. 8}

Four mighty angels are still holding the four winds of the earth. Terrible destruction is forbidden to come in full. The accidents by land and by sea; the loss of life, steadily increasing, by storm, by tempest, by railroad disaster, by conflagration; the terrible floods, the earthquakes, and the winds will be the stirring up of the nations to one deadly combat, while the angels hold the four winds, forbidding the terrible power of Satan to be exercised in its fury until the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads. Get ready, get ready, I beseech you, get ready before it shall be forever too late! The ministers of vengeance will pour all the terrible judgments upon a God-forsaken people. The way of obedience is the only path of life. May the Lord help you to see it in time to open your ears, that you may hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. {RH, June 7, 1887 par. 13}

Important events are about to take place. While the world is asking in scorn, "Where is the promise of His coming?" the signs are rapidly fulfilling. While men are crying, "Peace and safety," sudden destruction is coming. The Spirit of God is being withdrawn from the earth, and calamity is following calamity by land and by sea. Tempests and earthquakes, fires and floods, are heard of on every hand. Only in God can security be found. (God is the restorer, the protector, not the executioner) {RH, May 21, 1901 par. 4}

It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of. {14MR 3.1}

True, to my simple mind this is the best way I can express it. I am completely ignorant of how to express things to a sophisticated mind like yours.

Since I lack the capacity of discerning all of the intricate problems exposed by the varieties of Bible translations. I simply accept the saying of Jesus that He and the Father are one, with all of its implications. So if one of them forsakes the other it would be done by common consent, equally hurtful to either one of them. This could mean that I understand the words quite differently from the way you do?

I did not state that Jesus became a sinner when he died on the cross, but since you draw that conclusion you could be right?

What did Jesus mean when He cried out, "It is finished!"?

What does it mean that Jesus was conscious of what was going on until the moment He died?

When did Jesus carry the consequences of our sins if not on the cross? Does Scripture indicate that He is still a sinner while serving as our High Priest in Heaven?

Excellent questions! I'd like to hear Green's answer, and Rosangela...

What was Christ's mission?

John 17:3-4 And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have glorified you on the earth: I have finished the work which you gave me to do. John 17:6 I have manifested your name to the men which you gave me out of the world: your they were, and you gave them me; and they have kept your word.

This verse says he had accomplished His work. Had He died yet?

Christ came to do what?
1 John 3:8 He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
What are the works of the Devil?

Hebrews 2:14 For as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

John 14:30-31 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world comes, and has nothing in me. [nothing that would respond to the devil] 31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.


So what was Christ's misson from the above scripture references?
1) Manifest God's name, His Character, to men
2) Destroy the works of the devil ( which are? )
3) and Through death, he would destroy the one that had the power of death, that is, the devil.

Christ was never a sinner, but He did take on sin!

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live to righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed.

Taking the Bible as it reads, this is a literal statement: He bore our sins in His body. Note also, this bring healing, not judicial acquital.

Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
Isaiah 48:8 Yes, you heard not; yes, you knew not; yes, from that time that your ear was not opened: for I knew that you would deal very treacherously, and were called a transgressor from the womb.
Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.


What a sight was this for heaven to look upon. Christ, who knew not the least moral taint or defilement of sin, took our nature in its deteriorated condition. {16MR 115.3}
There was not a drop of bitter woe which He did not taste, not a part of the curse which He did not endure, that He might bring many sons and daughters to God. {16MR 116.1}
By taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. He was subject to the infirmities and weaknesses of the flesh with which humanity is encompassed, "that it might be fulfilled that was spoken by the prophet Esaias, Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." He was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was in all points tempted like as we are. And yet He was without a spot. {16MR 116.3}
After His resurrection, Christ opened the understanding of His followers, that they might understand the Scriptures. Everything had been transformed by the working of the arts of Satan. Truth was covered up by the rubbish of error, and hidden from finite sight. … {16MR 122.3}

Sin was not an element in his body which would have led him to death. Or is it your contention that God prevented this element to act in Satan and his angels but not in humans? The difference between angels and humans is that, differently from humans, the life of angels is directly maintained by God. They could never die unless God ceased to sustain their life.


Even from a human point of view, letting die is the same as killing. Omission is no better than comission. The key element here is neither omission nor comission, but motivation. God removes life in mercy.


An EXECUTIONER is someone whose main activity is to put people to death (like a hangman, for instance). He is used to this task. God definitely is not like that. Ellen White says:

“The Lord does not delight in vengeance, though he executes judgment upon the transgressors of his law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some, he must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. Says the prophet Isaiah: ‘The Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work, and bring to pass his act, his strange act.’ The work of wrath and destruction is indeed a strange, unwelcome work for Him who is infinite in love. {ST, August 24, 1882}

Did He have sin in His body?