APL,
Do you believe EGW when she says that the glory of God will slay the wicked? How do you see this?

Yes, and it would include abandoning someone to die.

Rosangela - are you saying God is a sinner? Amazing.

Jesus is the light on the all scripture. Hebrews 13:5-8 Keep your lives free from the love of money, and be satisfied with what you have. For God has said, "I will never leave you; I will never abandon you." 6 Let us be bold, then, and say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not be afraid. What can anyone do to me?" 7 Remember your former leaders, who spoke God's message to you. Think back on how they lived and died, and imitate their faith. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

God does not "abandon" us as we picture abandonmnet. We abandon Him, and because of freedom, He has to let us go. Just as with the fiery serpent in the wilderness. God had miraculously protected them and kept the people safe in the wilderness. They them murmured against God and called Him their worst enemy. God let them go. God directed Moses to make the brass serpent. "The lifting up of the brazen serpent was to teach Israel an important lesson. They could not save themselves from the fatal effect of the poison in their wounds. God alone was able to heal them. Yet they were required to show their faith in the provision which He had made. {PP 430.3}

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," even so was the Son of man "lifted up: that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:14, 15. All who have ever lived upon the earth have felt the deadly sting of "that old serpent, called the devil, and Satan." Revelation 12:9. The fatal effects of sin can be removed only by the provision that God has made. The Israelites saved their lives by looking upon the uplifted serpent. That look implied faith. They lived because they believed God's word, and trusted in the means provided for their recovery. So the sinner may look to Christ, and live. He receives pardon through faith in the atoning sacrifice. Unlike the inert and lifeless symbol, Christ has power and virtue in Himself to heal the repenting sinner. {PP 431.1}

Sin is fatal, not because of execution. The punishment is intrinsic. Did the children of Israel in the wilderness need judical pardonning? No, they needed healing. We need healing. It is not Penal Substitution or Moral Influence. It is Trust/Healing. Salvation means healing.

The prophet Isaiah had declared that the Lord would cleanse His people from their iniquities [healing, not judical] "by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning." The word of the Lord to Israel was, "I will turn My hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin." Isaiah 4:4; 1:25. To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Genesis 32:30. Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. His very presence would make manifest to men their sin. Only as they were willing to be purged from sin could they enter into fellowship with Him. Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence. {DA 108.1}

I have a glimps of the science of how this all happens. It is real, it is not arbitrary in any sense. Someday soon, I hope there will be a Sabbath School class where the "Science of Sin and Salvation" will be taught from the Bible, Ellen White, it is pervasive in her writings, and the Scientific literature. If it class happens, I will announce it here.

No, I'm saying your view does not provide satisfactory explanations. If any of us find a person who has cut his wrists because he wants to die, or someone who is drowning because he tried to commit suicide by jumping from a bridge, aren't we transgressors of the 6th commandment if we just go away? Aren't we transgressors if we just say, "Well (sigh), if this person wants to die, what can I do?"

The fact is that God raises the wicked and puts them in His presence, knowing that they will die. Yes, it's real, but the argument that sin is the only thing responsible for their death and that God doesn't have anything to do with it does not hold water.

Your analogy does not work. The scenario you present is for someone who has not tried to do all that is possible to SAVE the other person. God has done everything He can do. It has cost Him and INFINITE price. God will not FORCE anyone. Read Steps to Christ: Sin is the cause of death. Without the healing God only can provide, a sinner will be lost. Not because God execute them. That would make God a violator of His own law.

Quick quote...



If God's wrath will be poured out upon sinners, then Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross is brought into perspective. God's true love compelled Jesus to yield His life so that sinners need not thus perish, but be saved. "For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." Yet there is a limit beyond which God can do no more, and justice must be meted out.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

What what is the BIBLICAL definition of God's Wrath? ROMANS 1!!!
Romans 1:18-32
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it to them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.
24 Why God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up to vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Here is - right in the writings of Paul - a unique definition of the wrath of God. In this we see that man is without an excuse, because glorifying God is evident even in natural affection, but man invents his own to show that he is glorifying self and not the Creator.

To me it appears clear that the sin is in the mindset that directs the actions, a mindset that does not live in connection with and in a relationship with the Creator. This is what leads to death.

"Worthy of death" - what is the true meaning of this phrase?