No I don't. I never once have said that God punishes arbitrarily. I believe God punished Nadab and Abihu, yes, but it was far from arbitrary.

God did not destroy Nadab and Abihu. Their own choices did that. But God rewarded those choices with their deserved punishment that justice required and that was required to keep His sanctuary and people pure.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Their "deserved punishment". And why is it deserved? Is it because God makes the rules, and if you break the rules, He will punish you? Or is it that the punishment is a direct consequences of sin? Which is it? Is the punishment intrinsic or imposed? I know your answer. It is imposed. So really, the problem is not with sin, it is with God! Sin just make Him angry, and so he has to execute the sinner.

No, that is not what happens. Look at how Jesus treated Judas. Look at how Jesus died. Even Rosangela admitted (I think) that God did not execute Jesus. Everything - EVERYTHING - we need to know or indeed can know we learn from the life of Jesus.

Speaking of reading the Bible Green, consider:

1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

Which is it? Did Satan provoke David to number Isreal, or did the LORD move David to number Israel? Is Satan the LORD? I don't think so. What do these verses tell us about how to interpret scripture?

APL, Christ's prayer had to include the cross in anticipation. Christ's character was still tested on the cross, and through the cross He still (and especially so) revealed God's character to the world. So how can you say His prayer doesn't include the cross?


APL, the meaning of the phrase is explained in the quote you provided:

Christ made an end of sin, bearing its heavy curse in His own body on the tree, and He hath taken away the curse from all those who believe in Him as a personal Saviour. {1SM 394.3}


What I said is that sin, in itself, does not cause the agony which leads to the second death. The same is true about God's glory. But both elements, combined, destroy the sinner.

"THE CURSE" dear sister is SIN. The snake was "cursed" above all cattle, Genesis 3:14. The ground was "cursed", Genesis 3:17, and what did it bring forth? Thorns and thistles. Did God create thorns and thistles? NO. Satan did by his genetic engineering: "the curse".

In the earth seared and marred by the curse, in the briers, the thistles, the thorns, the tares, we may read the law of condemnation; but in the delicate color and perfume of the flowers, we may learn that God still loves us, that His mercy is not wholly withdrawn from the earth (RH Nov. 8, 1898). {1BC 1085.10}

in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." Genesis 3:17-19. {Ed 26.1}

Although the earth was blighted with the curse, nature was still to be man's lesson book. It could not now represent goodness only; for evil was everywhere present, marring earth and sea and air with its defiling touch. Where once was written only the character of God, the knowledge of good, was now written also the character of Satan, the knowledge of evil. From nature, which now revealed the knowledge of good and evil, man was continually to receive warning as to the results of sin. {Ed 26.2}

In drooping flower and falling leaf Adam and his companion witnessed the first signs of decay. Vividly was brought to their minds the stern fact that every living thing must die. Even the air, upon which their life depended, bore the seeds of death. {Ed 26.3}

Continually they were reminded also of their lost dominion. Among the lower creatures Adam had stood as king, and so long as he remained loyal to God, all nature acknowledged his rule; but when he transgressed, this dominion was forfeited. The spirit of rebellion, to which he himself had given entrance, extended throughout the animal creation. Thus not only the life of man, but the nature of the beasts, the trees of the forest, the grass of the field, the very air he breathed, all told the sad lesson of the knowledge of evil. {Ed 26.4}

But man was not abandoned to the results of the evil he had chosen. In the sentence pronounced upon Satan was given an intimation of redemption. "I will put enmity between thee and the woman," God said, "and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Genesis 3:15. This sentence, spoken in the hearing of our first parents, was to them a promise. Before they heard of the thorn and the thistle, of the toil and sorrow that must be their portion, or of the dust to which they must return, they listened to words that could not fail of giving them hope. All that had been lost by yielding to Satan could be regained through Christ. {Ed 27.1}
This intimation also nature repeats to us. Though marred by sin, it speaks not only of creation but of redemption. Though the earth bears testimony to the curse in the evident signs of decay, it is still rich and beautiful in the tokens of life-giving power. The trees cast off their leaves, only to be robed with fresher verdure; the flowers die, to spring forth in new beauty; and in every manifestation of creative power is held out the assurance that we may be created anew in "righteousness and holiness of truth." Ephesians 4:24, margin. Thus the very objects and operations of nature that bring so vividly to mind our great loss become to us the messengers of hope. {Ed 27.2}

As far as evil extends, the voice of our Father is heard, bidding His children see in its results the nature of sin, warning them to forsake the evil, and inviting them to receive the good. {Ed 27.3}

Christ made an end of sin, bearing its heavy curse in His own body on the tree, and He hath taken away the curse from all those who believe in Him as a personal Saviour. {1SM 394.3}

The curse is SIN. Sin is now in EVERY living thing, plant and animal. The "seeds of death" are in the very air that we breath!!! Christ bore the curse, He bore OUR SIN, in His body on the tree. This is a literal statement. Sin is real, it is physical, it is the cause of ALL disease and death. Sin is totally abhorent. And yet we are blind to its nature. And Satan would have it so. See {GC 569.1}

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said to the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; on your belly shall you go, and dust shall you eat all the days of your life:

Would you like to see the science that proves this? It is amazing. Mobile genetic elements have modified the HOX genes, the genes that lay out an organisms body plan, "creating" a snake. Worldly scientists call this evolution. But it is not. It is genetic engineering, which has modified the genome. It is sin. Does EGW support this idea? Where do you think I found it??? It is pervasive in her writing!!!

But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction of the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation of man and beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere. {3SG 64.1} I have many quotes, 75+ pages last I counted, that support what I am saying.

Yes, Jesus literally carried our sin in His body, 1 Peter 2:24. True statement.

I find it difficult to take part in your discussion now because one of the most important element in salvation is missing in this discussion, making it extremely difficult to come to an agreement.

What this element is, is not mine to reveal. You will have to discover it for yourselves, so keep on trying.

Love.

Understanding the distinction between "kill" and "murder" would help us to incorporate the concept of "love" into the salvation picture and/or understanding "love" would help us to comprehend this distinction.

But alas, I have so little time, and I shall soon be away a few weeks. Enjoy the discussion in my absence, and I'll try to rejoin it upon my return.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

APL,

The curse of sin is its penalty - suffering, anguish and death.

Jesus gave his life to save lost man from the curse or penalty he merited by transgression. He by humbling himself exalted man. He became the stepping-stone to elevate man, that he might lay hold of the virtue of his blood, keep God's law, and be brought back to eat of the fruit of the tree of life to which Adam and Eve forfeited all right. {LS88 340.2}

And because I am a sinner I am entitled to come to Christ. I am sinful and polluted, but He suffered humiliation and death, and exhausted the curse that belongs to me. {1SM 325.1}

Sin and the curse it brings are synonymous. Understand that ALL LIFE is affected by the curse. Does a tree "anguish"? The falling leaves are a result of the curse, the result of sin. Where you have sin, you have death. And that death does not need to be judicially executed, externally imposed. The consequences are intrinsic. And this is seen all around us in nature which testifies that the wages of sin is death, not execution.

"kill" and "murder".

John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said to them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Christ upheld the Law of Moses with the person taken in adultery. The law demanded the adulterer to be stoned to death. The law also demanded that the accuser be the first to cast a stone! Deuteronomy 13:9; 17:7. Jesus continues, John 8:10-11 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said to her, Woman, where are those your accusers? has no man condemned you? 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said to her, Neither do I condemn you: go, and sin no more. Does God condemn us? No. Is there consequences for our sin? You bet there is. How is God involved in the consequences? John 5:14 Afterward Jesus finds him in the temple, and said to him, Behold, you are made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come to you.

It is educational to read EGW definition of the 6th commandment.
WOW - the 6th commandment is very broad indeed. If you accuse another which demands the death penalty, then YOU are the one to inflict it. That is the law of Moses. But it is not interesting that Jesus often bypasses the law of moses? Take the situation of divorce! Moses had laws for divorce. And when questioned about it, Jesus bypasses the law of Moses and goes all the way back to Creation, for it is written, Matthew 19:7-8 They say to him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorce, and to put her away? 8 He said to them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

Is that not interesting. God met the people where they were and gave them laws which were not ideal. Why? Because of the hardness of their hearts.

Is it not also interesting how Jesus responded to those that abused Him and what he taught us how to respond to others that abuse us? Matthew 5:38-42 You have heard that it has been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say to you, That you resist not evil: but whoever shall smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue you at the law, and take away your coat, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever shall compel you to go a mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him that asks you, and from him that would borrow of you turn not you away.