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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Johann] #149054
01/15/13 12:16 PM
01/15/13 12:16 PM
APL  Offline
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SDABC: Worthy of death. This does not refer to civil justice but rather to the fatal consequences of sin (Romans 6:23).


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #149055
01/15/13 12:29 PM
01/15/13 12:29 PM
Johann  Offline
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Posts: 3,014
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Originally Posted By: APL
SDABC: Worthy of death. This does not refer to civil justice but rather to the fatal consequences of sin (Romans 6:23).


Any person who depends on civil - or forensic - justice is eternally lost.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #149056
01/15/13 12:33 PM
01/15/13 12:33 PM
APL  Offline
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Romans 1:32

Knowing. The word implies “full knowledge” (cf. on Romans 1:28).

Judgment. Gr. dikaiōma, “ordinance,” “decree.” Paul is referring to the righteous sentence of God that declares what is right and wrong and connects death with sin and life with righteousness. This decree is revealed not only in in the OT but also in the conscience of every man (Romans 2:14-16).

Paul has clearly emphasized in this first chapter that the sins of the heathen were committed in the face of considerable knowledge about God (Romans 1:19-21; Romans 1:25; Romans 1:28).

Commit. Better, “practice.” The Greek implies repeated and continued action.

Worthy of death. This does not refer to civil justice but rather to the fatal consequences of sin (Romans 6:23).

Have pleasure. Or, “heartily approve,” “applaud.” The word describes more than a passive assent to evil; it suggests an active consent and approval (see Acts 8:1; Acts 22:20). The climax of Paul’s catalogue of sins is the depraved wickedness of deriving satisfaction from the evil practices of others. So far does man degenerate when he refuses to know and honor the true God.

Paul’s dark picture of heathen corruption can be verified from the secular writings of the 1st century. One of the most frequently quoted descriptions of the iniquity prevailing in Paul’s day is that of Seneca, a contemporary of Paul, who in his work De Ira ii. 9. 1 declares: “Every place is full of crime and vice; too many crimes are committed to be cured by any possible restraint. Men struggle in a mighty rivalry of wickedness. Every day the desire for wrong-doing is greater, the dread of it less; all regard for what is better and more just is banished, lust hurls itself wherever it likes, and crimes are now no longer covert. They stalk before our very eyes, and wickedness has come to such a public state, has gained such power over the hearts of all, that innocence is not rare-it is non-existent” (Loeb ed., Moral Essays, vol. 1, p. 183). See also the Wisdom of Solomon 14:22-30. Compare DA-36; DA-37.

For 4,000 years the experiment as to whether man could save himself by his own works had been carried on. “The principle that man can save himself by his own works lay at the foundation of every heathen religion” (DA-35). Now it had become clearly apparent that another plan of salvation was required. “Satan was exulting that he had succeeded in debasing the image of God in humanity. Then Jesus came to restore in man the image of his Maker” (DA-37; DA-38; see Galatians 4:4-5). The good news that man’s condition is not hopeless but that righteousness is available to all who have faith in Christ was Paul’s message of hope to the heathen world. This is the “gospel of Christ,” the theme of this epistle to the believers in Rome.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #149057
01/15/13 12:42 PM
01/15/13 12:42 PM
APL  Offline
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The commentary on Romans 1:18 is also informative.

Romans 1:18

For. Here the main argument of the epistle begins. Paul first seek to show that all men, Gentiles and Jews alike, need the righteousness that is revealed in the gospel. For all men are sinners and therefore exposed to the wrath of God, whether Gentiles (Romans 1:13-32) or Jews (Romans 2:1-29; Romans 3:1-20).

The wrath of God. That is, the divine displeasure against sin, resulting ultimately in the abandonment of man to the judgment of death (see Romans 6:23; John 3:36). The wrath of the infinite God must not be compared to human passion. God is love (1 John 4:8), and though He hates sin, He loves the sinner (SC-54). However, God does not force His love upon those who are unwilling to receive His mercy (see DA-22; DA-466; DA-759). Thus, God’s wrath against sin is exercised in the withdrawal of His presence and life-giving power from those who choose to remain in sin and thus share in its inevitable consequences (see Genesis 6:3; cf. DA-107; DA-763; DA-764; SC-17; SC-18).

This is illustrated by the terrible experience of the Jews after their rejection of Christ. Since they had become confirmed in their stubborn impenitence and had refused the last offers of mercy, “God withdrew His protection from them and removed His restraining power from Satan and his angels, and the nation was left to the control of the leader she had chosen” (GC-28).

When God’s wrath against sin fell upon Christ as our substitute, it was the separation from His Father that caused Him such great anguish. “This agony He must not exert His divine power to escape. As man He must suffer the consequence of man’s sin. As man He must endure the wrath of God against transgression” (DA-686). Finally, on the cross, “the wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. … The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man” (DA-753).

Thus, as Paul explains in Romans 1:24; Romans 1:26; Romans 1:28, God reveals His wrath by turning impenitent men over to the inevitable results of their rebellion. This persistent resistance of God’s love and mercy culminates in the final revelation of God’s wrath on that day when the Spirit of God is at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, the wicked have no protection from the evil one. “As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose” (GC-614). Then fire comes down from God out of heaven, and sin and sinners are forever destroyed (Revelation 20:9; cf. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10).

But even this final revelation of God’s wrath in the destruction of the wicked is not an act of arbitrary power. “God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life” (DA-764). God gives men existence for a time so that they may develop their characters. When this has been accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. “By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire” (ibid.; cf. GC-543).

Revealed. Or, “is being revealed” (see Romans 1:17). The full manifestation of the wrath of God will be seen at the end of the world (Romans 2:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9; Revelation 6:16-17). But God’s displeasure against sin is also being revealed in the condition of mankind. The debasing vices and deliberate wickedness to which the sinner is given over (Romans 1:24-32), prove God’s condemnation and punishment of sin. Paul’s preaching of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel (Romans 1:17) also serves to reveal the wrath of God more clearly than ever before.

From heaven. The revelation of divine wrath comes as a message of warning from God’s throne.

Ungodliness. Gr. asebeia, “lack of reverence for God,” “irreligion” (see Romans 1:21).

Unrighteousness. Gr. adikia, “lack of right conduct,” “injustice” (see Romans 1:29).

Hold. Gr. katechō, “to possess,” “to hold fast,” “to hold back,” “to hinder,” “to suppress.” The context here shows that the meaning “hold back” is to be preferred. Compare similar uses of the word in Luke 4:42; 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7.

The truth. This refers particularly to knowledge concerning God (see Romans 1:19; Romans 1:25; see on John 8:32).

In unrighteousness. In and by their wickedness men were holding back and suppressing the truth about God. In their determination to practice iniquity men were unwilling to retain the knowledge of a pure and holy God who they knew was opposed to such deeds and would punish them. By so doing they were not only suppressing the truth in their own hearts but also concealing the truth from others.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #149059
01/15/13 01:23 PM
01/15/13 01:23 PM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: APL
God does not force His love upon those who are unwilling to receive His mercy (see DA-22; DA-466; DA-759). Thus, God’s wrath against sin is exercised in the withdrawal of His presence and life-giving power from those who choose to remain in sin and thus share in its inevitable consequences (see Genesis 6:3; cf. DA-107; DA-763; DA-764; SC-17; SC-18).

This is illustrated by the terrible experience of the Jews after their rejection of Christ. Since they had become confirmed in their stubborn impenitence and had refused the last offers of mercy, “God withdrew His protection from them and removed His restraining power from Satan and his angels, and the nation was left to the control of the leader she had chosen” (GC-28).

When God’s wrath against sin fell upon Christ as our substitute, it was the separation from His Father that caused Him such great anguish. “This agony He must not exert His divine power to escape. As man He must suffer the consequence of man’s sin. As man He must endure the wrath of God against transgression” (DA-686). Finally, on the cross, “the wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. … The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man” (DA-753).

Thus, as Paul explains in Romans 1:24; Romans 1:26; Romans 1:28, God reveals His wrath by turning impenitent men over to the inevitable results of their rebellion. This persistent resistance of God’s love and mercy culminates in the final revelation of God’s wrath on that day when the Spirit of God is at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, the wicked have no protection from the evil one. “As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose” (GC-614). Then fire comes down from God out of heaven, and sin and sinners are forever destroyed (Revelation 20:9; cf. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10).

But even this final revelation of God’s wrath in the destruction of the wicked is not an act of arbitrary power. “God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life” (DA-764). God gives men existence for a time so that they may develop their characters. When this has been accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. “By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire” (ibid.; cf. GC-543).



Sin is whatever separates man from the Source of immortality and permits the satanic powers which man has chosen to follow to consume.

This is the situation we are all in and without accepting this fact the Gospel has no power to protect us from eternal death.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Johann] #149067
01/15/13 02:29 PM
01/15/13 02:29 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
What what is the BIBLICAL definition of God's Wrath? ROMANS 1!!!

Of course Romans gives us a portion of the picture, but there are other portions. No single pixel suffices to create a picture.

There are some other texts that help to complete the picture.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Last edited by Green Cochoa; 01/15/13 02:30 PM.

We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Johann] #149075
01/15/13 04:21 PM
01/15/13 04:21 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Johann
Sin is whatever separates man from the Source of immortality and permits the satanic powers which man has chosen to follow to consume.

This is the situation we are all in and without accepting this fact the Gospel has no power to protect us from eternal death.
AMEN!

EGW in MR 1201 titled, Christ's Mission to Earth, writes: "It was sin that separated man from his God, and it is sin that maintains this separation." {16MR 115.2}

The whole manuscript should be read!!! And leave all preconceived ideas behind, and let the manuscipt speak.

Christ came to the earth, taking humanity and standing as man's representative, to show in the controversy with Satan that he was a liar, and that man, as God created him, [is man now not as God created him?] connected with the Father and the Son, could obey every requirement of God. Speaking through His servant He declares, "His commandments are not grievous." It was sin that separated man from his God, and it is sin that maintains this separation. {16MR 115.2}

What a sight was this for heaven to look upon. Christ, who knew not the least moral taint or defilement of sin, took our nature in its deteriorated condition. [Christ was not morally defiled, but his physical nature was] This was humiliation greater than finite man can comprehend. He was the Majesty of heaven, but in the divine plan He descended from His high and holy estate to take humanity, that humanity might touch humanity, and divinity, combined with humanity, take hold upon divinity. {16MR 115.3}

...By taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. [sin in the body is what gives us our temptations, Christ never participated] ... Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses.
... {16MR 116.3}

The enmity referred to in the prophecy in Eden was not to be confined merely to Satan and the Prince of life. It was to be universal. Satan and his angels were to feel the enmity of all mankind. {16MR 117.3} [is was not just a messianic prophesy]

The enmity put between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman was supernatural. ... {16MR 118.1}

False theories and false gods are cherished in the place of the true. ... {16MR 118.4}

But Christ was unmoved; and He used only the weapons justifiable for human beings to use--the word of Him who is mighty in counsel, "It is written." {16MR 119.2} [hm - no stoning of the sinner?]

With what intense interest was this controversy watched by the heavenly angels and the unfallen worlds as the honor of the law was being vindicated. Not merely for this world, but for the universe of heaven and the worlds that God had created, was the controversy to be forever settled. {16MR 119.4}

That which Christ had specified would be His work, was fulfilled. The sick were healed, demoniacs were restored, lepers and paralytics were made whole. The dumb spake, the ears of the deaf were opened, the dead were brought to life, and the poor had the gospel preached to them. {16MR 120.4} [HEALING! - not jursiprudence]

... Everything had been transformed by the working of the arts of Satan. ... {16MR 122.3}

So dull has been the comprehension of even those who teach the truth to others that many things cannot be opened to them until they reach heaven. [heaven will be a real eye openner - for everyone] It ought not to be so. But as men's minds become narrow, they think they know it all, and set one stake after another in points of truths of which they have only a glimpse. They close their minds as though there were no more for them to learn, and should the Lord attempt to lead them on, they would not take up with the increased light. They cling to the spot where they think they see a glimmer of light, when it is only a link in the living chain of truths and promises to be studied. They know very little of what it means to follow in the footsteps of Christ. {16MR 123.2}

Read the whole manuscript...


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Green Cochoa] #149077
01/15/13 06:33 PM
01/15/13 06:33 PM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
No single pixel suffices to create a picture.

There are some other texts that help to complete the picture.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Definitely. The essential picture is the saving power of Jesus Christ and how we can accept it through faith. There is no salvation without. There is no eternal life available to those who do not accept the grace of God, and the only alternative to life is death!


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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