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How "free" are we after all?
#14902
07/05/05 10:21 PM
07/05/05 10:21 PM
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OP
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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A question has been repeatedly raised as to whether God manipulates all beings in the Universe for His own aims, or whether He allows His created beings free reign and reponsibilty to make eternal choices.
Some heavily Calvinist-leaning views, mixed with fatalism have been stated as well as the exact opposite.
What is the moral limits of our free-will?
How much "leash" has God given Satan, angels of both loyalties, and fallen and saved man?
Is what we do "pre-ordained"?
[ August 03, 2005, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: Phil N. D'blanc ]
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14903
07/06/05 02:45 AM
07/06/05 02:45 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Q. What is the moral limits of our free-will? A. What's this asking? Q. How much "leash" has God given Satan, angels of both loyalties, and fallen and saved man? A. God has given beings of both loyalties the maximum possible amount of leash. God counts nothing as more important than freedom, which the death of His Son shows. He would rather die than have a universe where His children would worship Him from fear, which is what would have resulted had God not made clear the principles of His government and the inevitable results of sin. Q. Is what we do "pre-ordained"? A. Not even was what Christ did pre-ordained. quote:
Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss. {DA 49.1}
The heart of the human father yearns over his son. He looks into the face of his little child, and trembles at the thought of life's peril. He longs to shield his dear one from Satan's power, to hold him back from temptation and conflict. To meet a bitterer conflict and a more fearful risk, God gave His only-begotten Son, that the path of life might be made sure for our little ones. "Herein is love." Wonder, O heavens! and be astonished, O earth! {DA 49.2}
God led Christ moment by moment, but Christ had free will to do whatever He wanted or chose. Christ chose to do His Father's will, but God sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal loss, showing that not even in the case of Christ was what He would do pre-ordained.
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14904
07/06/05 05:50 AM
07/06/05 05:50 AM
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OP
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
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Q. What (are) the moral limits of our free-will?
Perhaps I mean noble borders,the ideal boundaries of a man's free will.
To be on probation, one has limits to what he can and cannnot do. Even Christ was on probation while on earth.
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14905
07/06/05 09:01 AM
07/06/05 09:01 AM
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Greetings,
There are two verses that come to mind.
quote:
Jeremiah 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where [is] the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk [therein].
Matthew 5:48 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where [is] the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk [therein].
Sin is full of things which are not of God.
quote:
Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
When the reigns of our hearts are controlled by God we will hate sin, we will literally desire never to touch what is unclean before the Lord. We will ever desire to lay down our garments of rags and ask for the robe of righteousness.
quote:
The record declares, "Neither was there any among them that lacked," and it tells how the need was filled. Those among the believers who had money and possessions cheerfully sacrificed them to meet the emergency. Selling their houses or their lands, they brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet, "and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need."
This liberality on the part of the believers was the result of the outpouring of the Spirit. The converts to the gospel were "of one heart and of one soul." One common interest controlled them--the success of the mission entrusted to them; and covetousness had no place in their lives. Their love for their brethren and the cause they had espoused, was greater than their love of money and possessions. Their works testified that they accounted the souls of men of higher value them earthly wealth.
Thus it will ever be when the Spirit of God takes possession of the life. Those whose hearts are filled with the love of Christ, will follow the example of Him who for our sake became poor, that through His poverty we might be made rich. Money, time, influence--all the gifts they have received from God's hand, they will value only as a means of advancing the work of the gospel. Thus it was in the early church; and when in the church of today it is seen that by the power of the Spirit the members have taken their affections from the things of the world, and that they are willing to make sacrifices in order that their fellow men may hear the gospel, the truths proclaimed will have a powerful influence upon the hearers. Acts of the Apostles, pp. 70:1-71:1.
When we love the Lord we learn of Him. We give up our yoke of sin and bondage for His yoke. The boundries of God's truth is love and therefore it is lined out in the following manner:
quote:
1 Corinthians
13:4 Charity suffereth long, [and] is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.
God does not change(ref. Malachi 3:6). When we are controlled by His Holy Spirit we will image the character of Christ with thought and act and every manner of speech. We will be His vessel pouring out His light. We will delight in His way always and hate sin, therefore we will not touch the unclean things.
Finally, quote:
To be on probation, one has limits to what he can and cannnot do. Even Christ was on probation while on earth.
The limits of the faithful in Christ Jesus is love as described in 1 Cor. 13 and their thoughts are only of those which Christ has. Which is to do the will of the Heavenly Father.
Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri Fritz
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14906
07/06/05 01:08 PM
07/06/05 01:08 PM
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OP
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
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Yes, Cheri you are within the arena of what I'm speaking of; however, MM seems IMHO to be implying that all mankind, saint and sinner, are controlled by God, ultimately. That He is reponsibile for the evil and the good actions of everyone and everything. If I understand him correctly, and this is eelish hobby, then I must strongly disagree with that sort of determinism, as it leads to highly superstitious conclusions ina personal way for christians.
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14907
07/07/05 02:41 AM
07/07/05 02:41 AM
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SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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If God is not in control of the outcome of our choices - then how is it that He can confidently say, through prophecy, what will be before it is? I have never said, or didn't mean to imply, that God forces us to choose one way or another. True, He exerts an overpowering influence, at times, so that we make choices according to His predestined plan. However, and for reasons I do not clearly understand, this doesn't apply to choosing to be saved. If God was able to influence Cyrus to fulfill his prophetic destiny, without violating his freedom to choose, why can't God also exercise the power of influence, in such a way, that we eagerly and willing choose to be saved?
BTW, did John the Baptist have a choice? God filled him with the Holy Spirit in his mother's womb, right? Why doesn't God do that for all of us? Wouldn't it make things a lot easier?
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14908
07/06/05 05:14 PM
07/06/05 05:14 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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MM:True, He exerts an overpowering influence, at times, so that we make choices according to His predestined plan. Tom: What's this mean? quote:
...Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. (DA 22)
Your use of "overwhelming influence" sounds an awful lot like force to me, which is contrary to the principles of God's government.
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14909
07/06/05 05:27 PM
07/06/05 05:27 PM
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Regarding John the Baptist:
quote:
Let mothers come to Jesus with their perplexities. They will find grace sufficient to aid them in the management of their children. The gates are open for every mother who would lay her burdens at the Saviour's feet. . . . He . . . still invites the mothers to lead up their little ones to be blessed by Him. Even the babe in its mother's arms may dwell under the shadow of the Almighty through the faith of the praying mother. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from his birth. If we live in communion with God, we too may expect the divine Spirit to mould our little ones, even from their earliest moments.Adventist Home, . 274.3.
It was the parent of young John that made the difference from the womb. Just think if all the mothers would attend to God like this mom of John the Baptist...oh what a lovely generation we would have!
Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri Fritz
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14910
07/06/05 07:08 PM
07/06/05 07:08 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Thank you, Cheri, but somehow I suspect John's case was unusual. But I'm happy to know that even parents today can hope and pray for the leading of the Holy Spirit in the lives of their children.
Tom, how do you explain the overpowering influence Jesus exerted in the case of Cyrus? and Balaam?
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14911
07/06/05 09:52 PM
07/06/05 09:52 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I don't see that God used an overwhelming influence in either of those cases. I understand that force is not a principle of God's government. Do you see things that way? I don't think God would do something not in accordance with the principles of His government. That would be out of character for God, wouldn't it? And God never acts of character, correct?
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