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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14922
07/08/05 05:52 AM
07/08/05 05:52 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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This is the same as is written in the NT that "not all should become pastors or teachers for the leaders will be judged harder than the lead"...
/Thomas
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14923
07/08/05 09:22 AM
07/08/05 09:22 AM
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OP
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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There are two distinct camps about prophecy:
1. God manipulates history to fulfill prophecy.
2. Prophecy is the foretelling of future history.
Either He foretells because He knows what we will do, or He "fiddles with men's souls" to fit His predictions.
Sunday-keepers and all varities of dominionists, from Hal Lindsey to Timothy LeHaye are palming off entire nations that God is the puppet-master. See the results in the Middle East, the horrors of misapplication of prophecy gone wild.
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14924
07/08/05 11:44 AM
07/08/05 11:44 AM
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Greetings Brother John,
Your question:
quote:
Does God have "hope"?
Answer:
quote:
I Corinthians 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri Fritz
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14925
07/09/05 02:35 AM
07/09/05 02:35 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Just because God knows the end from the beginning, like watching a rerun, doesn't mean we don't have the freedom to choose, or that God cannot take an active part to ensure a favorable outcome of the great controversy. In fact, prophecy takes into account God's active participation, that is, everything God will do to make sure things turn out to His favor.
So, again, did Ezekiel have a choice? If death is the only other option do we really have a choice?
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14926
07/09/05 02:44 AM
07/09/05 02:44 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Those were good questions, John B. What he was getting at, Dave, is that your assertions are logically untenable.
Phill, isn't it possible for God to both have knowledge of the future and the ability to influence events to coincide with prophesy? These don't seem mutually exclusive to me.
God does influence people and events. He just doesn't use force.
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14927
07/08/05 04:13 PM
07/08/05 04:13 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
Those were good questions, John B. What he was getting at, Dave, is that your assertions are logically untenable.
So it is your contention that God either does not know what will happen or that God controls people like a robot? I find it very possible that God does know what will happen, but he must be fair and let us live our lives.
What we are saying, in essence say is that God created some of us to be sinners. How bad is that? If we do not have a choice, then God must have intended us to be sinners. In the end, it comes down to humans not wanting to take responsibility for what they do.
If God does not have more than one plan, why did he invite 2 men before Ellen White?
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14928
07/08/05 05:08 PM
07/08/05 05:08 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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God invited the first man to be a prophet, because that's what He intended to happen. People do not always do what God wants them to do. Pardon my answering your questions with another question, but I think it could be helpful. quote:
Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss. {DA 49.1}
The heart of the human father yearns over his son. He looks into the face of his little child, and trembles at the thought of life's peril. He longs to shield his dear one from Satan's power, to hold him back from temptation and conflict. To meet a bitterer conflict and a more fearful risk, God gave His only-begotten Son, that the path of life might be made sure for our little ones. "Herein is love." Wonder, O heavens! and be astonished, O earth! {DA 49.2}
How do you understand this? I'm specifically interested in your understanding of how the word "risk" is being used.
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14929
07/08/05 05:19 PM
07/08/05 05:19 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
God invited the first man to be a prophet, because that's what He intended to happen. People do not always do what God wants them to do.
Yep, that's what I said too. So does that men he did not plan for the second man or Ellen White?
The risk that is spoken of is the fact that Jesus too was of his own mind. He could have chosen to not follow His Father's plan.
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14930
07/08/05 06:45 PM
07/08/05 06:45 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
Does God have "hope"?
Cheri answered with,
I Corinthians 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
God is Love, Love has genuine hope,
How does "hope" relate to our view of foreknowledge?
Is God able to "hope"?
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Re: How "free" are we after all?
#14931
07/08/05 06:49 PM
07/08/05 06:49 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Luk 20:11 And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty.
Luk 20:12 And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out.
Luk 20:13 Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
Luk 20:14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
Is everything so "cut and dry" with the Lord?
Is the issue of sin and salvation more involved than we think?
He said: "It may be"
What does that tell us of the Lord's considerations?
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