NOV. 26, 1861
The Review and Herald had this article:


QUESTION. Can you tell who the four and twenty
elders are, spoken of in Bev. iv, 10 ? I. B. H.

ANSWER. These elders are brought to view in chap, v, in a manner which, I think, throws some light on the question as to who they are. This chapter gives a record of the events that introduced the opening of the seven seals; and the part which these elders acted in those scenes, settles some important facts concerning them.

By the seven seals, the same as by the seven trumpets, is undoubtedly brought to view a series of events, transpiring in consecutive order, and covering the whole gospel dispensation. The first of these seals, according to general interpretation, was opened, and the events brought to view under it, transpired, near the commencement of this dispensation.

"With this fact vividly in mind, that the opening of the first of these seals is far in the past, let it be noticed that it is before the opening of any of the seals that these elders are seen acting a part in heaven. When the challenge was issued through heaven and earth [verse
2], "Who is worthy to open the book and to loose the seals thereof? and while John was weeping much because no one was found worthy to open and read the book [verse 4], one of the elders said unto him, ""Weep not: behold the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Boot of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof."

Again, when the Lamb had taken the book from the hand of Him that sat on the throne, previous to his opening the seals thereof, the elders break forth into a new song, saying, " Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals there- of; for thou wast slain and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and
people, and nation." Verses 8, 9.

This testimony
shows unmistakably that those elders were in heaven, personally acting their part previous to the opening of any of the seals. The expression, " Thou wast slain," locates the time of this song subsequent to the crucifixion of Christ; it was sung therefore at some point between that event and the opening of the first seal. The transaction which called forth this song of honor to the Lamb, was his taking the book preparatory to opening its seven seals. The events of these seals all transpire previous to the redemption of the church. The church therefore will never sing such a song as this. They will never ascribe honor to him because he is worthy to do (an expression which looks into the future) something which already had been done and finished more than eighteen centuries previous to that time.

The conclusion is therefore unavoidable that these elders are not introduced here merely as representatives of other persons, representing the church, for instance, and singing the song which the redeemed will sing ; but that they were literally and personally present in heaven, at the time when brought to view, that the song they sung, was called forth by their own personal feelings on that occasion, and that the facts they state were true of themselves individually and then. And what was one of the facts which they stated ? It was this : " Thou hast redeemed us to God by thy blood." The twenty- four elders were therefore some who had been redeem-
ed from.the earth at that time.

Thus far the conclusions arrived at seem to be necessary and scriptural. The twenty-four elders are persons who have at some time been redeemed from the earth. Perhaps this is a sufficient answer.

But there are two other queries that may arise on this subject, which can be readily answered by at least plau-
sible conjecture,
i. Where have we any intimation that any persons have ever been redeemed from the earth; and
2. If these are twenty-four persons who have been so redeemed how can they say that they were redeemed from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation ?

In reference to the first of these queries it may be said that there is more than an intimation that a number of saints have already been redeemed. It is said that at the resurrection of Christ many of the saints that slept arose and came out of their graves. Matt.xxvii,50-53. And when he ascended up on high we are told that he led captivity captive, or as the margin reads, a multitude of captives. To identify the twenty-four elders with a portion of this company is the most natural and probable disposition of the matter. {November 26, 1861 UrSe, ARSH 204.12}

In reference to the second query, these persons may have been selected from different ages since the creation of the world, those most eminent in piety and the service of God being taken from each age. In this way they could be said to be redeemed out of every kindred, people, and nation. It may be proper to add that this exposition of the twenty-four elders is an individual opinion, for which the writer holds no one responsible but himself. {November 26, 1861 UrSe, ARSH 204.13}

But Dedication, it's EGW who refers to them as angels. So the idea isn't in fact new, although it may be new for almost all of us who hadn't noticed these passages before.


Rev. 8:3-5 shows an angel with a censer and incense.


But do human beings in heaven grow old? I think the term refers more to a position than to age.


I don't think this must necessarily be the case. They might have been assigned to help Christ in a special work, like His mediation and the IJ.

Are we still testing the claims of Stephen Bohr? Compare them with these statements of EGW:



Here EGW is referring to Christ as portrayed in Rev. 5, and she makes it clear that John is watching a vision of what is going to take place in the future. Revelation was written many years after the ascension on Jesus, and yet i understand Stephen Bohr claiming that none of the 24 elders could be among those resurrected with Christ because none of them had arrived in heaven by the time Rev 5 took place.

If Rev 5 is referring to a future event before the Second advent, don't we also have mentioned the 3 angels in that connection. And who are they?

Ellen White: " Christ is soon to come the second time. Of this we should often talk. It should be the uppermost thought in our minds. He is coming, with power and great glory, and every eye shall see Him. All the holy angels will accompany Him. Of this company John writes, “I beheld, and heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beast and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands” (Revelation 5:11). {OFC 278.2}
The trumpet has not yet sounded. Those who have gone down into the grave have not yet cried, “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” (1 Corinthians 15:55). The righteous dead have not yet been caught up with the living saints to meet their Lord in the air. But the time is near when the words spoken by the apostle Paul will have their fulfillment, “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18). {OFC 278.3}
In order for us to be like the Saviour, we must be changed "

Our period of toil, my brother, my sister, will soon be at an end. We shall see Jesus, and be made like Him. “And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. And they shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of water: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes” [Revelation 7:13-17]. We shall surely see and realize all these blessings. Trust in the Lord and He will strengthen thy faith.—Letter 16, 1896. (Written from Ashfield, N.S.W., November 17, 1896, to Brother and Sister Cady.) {12MR 305.3}

This roll was written within and without. John says: “I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.” The vision as presented to John made its impression upon his mind. The destiny of every nation was contained in that book. John was distressed at the utter inability of any human being or angelic intelligence to read the words, or even to look thereon. His soul was wrought up to such a point of agony and suspense that one of the strong angels had compassion on him, and laying his hand on him assuringly said, “Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.” {20MR 197.3}
John continues: “I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And He came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.” As the book was unrolled, all who looked upon it were filled with awe. There were no blanks in the book. There was space for no more writing. [Revelation 5:8-14; 6:8, quoted.] {20MR 197.4}

Is there anything that prevents us from understanding that it was both an angel and one of the elders who comforted John with the same words?

Considering that John wept much he must have been extremely discouraged. Is it any wonder then that an angel came to him and repeated the greatly encouraging words that had been uttered by an elder?

How important is it for us to destroy the confidence in the conclusion our pioneers came to in this matter?

Pastor Johann, I have the utmost respect and admiration for men like you, who have dedicated their whole lives to the service of God. But, as I said, we do not all see eye to eye, so please forgive me if I at some moment disagree with something you say. Having worked for some time at a White Estate branch, and having verified the differing views of our pioneers and of Ellen White on some subjects, my view is that, when what they say differs from what she says, I stay with what she says.

Well, it does throw some issues Rosangela's way....

Angels are created beings.
Christ is an Arch angel.
Therefore, Christ must be a created being.


And there is still the issue I did not see she addressed by the exclusive implication:
then would this mean other worlds do not and will not observe the Sabbath?

I'm not following you, kland. In the Bible, both in the OT and in the NT, the meaning of the word translated as "angel" is "messenger." So Jesus Christ is the Chief Messenger. Why does He have to be a created being?


No, it means that Ellen White is not referring to them in this passage. You remind me of the antitrinitarians who quote GC 493, where EGW says that Christ was "the only being in all the universe that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God," and say that the Holy Spirit couldn't enter into the counsels of God. She simply is not referring to Him in this passage.