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Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4?
[Re: Rosangela]
#149497
02/09/13 10:35 PM
02/09/13 10:35 PM
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Group: Admin Team
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Florida, USA
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It just doesn't seem right to think of the 24 elders as angels. That is a relative new idea. But Dedication, it's EGW who refers to them as angels. So the idea isn't in fact new, although it may be new for almost all of us who hadn't noticed these passages before. They seem to be Priests -- with censors and incense. Rev. 8:3-5 shows an angel with a censer and incense. Angels don't grow old. So it seems strange to have elder angels. But do human beings in heaven grow old? I think the term refers more to a position than to age. The fact that they sit on thrones indicates that they reign with Christ. I don't think this must necessarily be the case. They might have been assigned to help Christ in a special work, like His mediation and the IJ. Rosangela, I have to say before we go too far, that we would have to look at what is on the original handwritten manuscript, because making the elders into 'strong angels', doesnt seem correct at any level. Ellen White had to constantly edit her assistants notes of what they wrote to make sure a mistake did not slip through. If this is taken from a 'raw' or unedited manuscript then we may have an answer to the issue.
Last edited by Rick H; 02/09/13 10:35 PM.
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Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4?
[Re: kland]
#149498
02/09/13 11:28 PM
02/09/13 11:28 PM
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Global Moderator
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Posts: 6,705
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People can have the appearance like angels.
I thought Bohr was saying the elders were people of other planets.
What am I missing?
I think what many are missing is that Bohr was saying the elders were the first created people of unfallen planets. My memory may be fuzzy, but those quotes about angels were not in his original study. They have been added later making the study a rather mixed up unclear presentation. When I read his study a few years ago it was logical and clear, now it's full of contradictions. Some of the old information is still there, but the new "angel" quotes are mixed in. For example -- In one place he says: The 24 elders are powerful angels assigned by God to be representatives of worlds that never sinned. Then he proves that Adam was the "son of God", the representative of this world. then he writes: The 24 elders are not cherubim nor seraphim because these two groups are distinguished from the 24 elders (Revelation 4:4, 10) They are not part of the angelic hosts because the angelic hosts are clearly distinguished from them. His whole presentation is now VERY confusing. Is Adam an Angel? From His study one could easily come to that conclusion that he was.
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Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4?
[Re: dedication]
#149501
02/10/13 01:18 PM
02/10/13 01:18 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2014
Retired Pastor
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
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I think what many are missing is that Bohr was saying the elders were the first created people of unfallen planets.
His whole presentation is now VERY confusing.
Is seems safer to base one's views on something that is not confusing.
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4?
[Re: dedication]
#149510
02/11/13 10:12 AM
02/11/13 10:12 AM
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Group: Admin Team
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People can have the appearance like angels.
I thought Bohr was saying the elders were people of other planets.
What am I missing?
I think what many are missing is that Bohr was saying the elders were the first created people of unfallen planets. My memory may be fuzzy, but those quotes about angels were not in his original study. They have been added later making the study a rather mixed up unclear presentation. When I read his study a few years ago it was logical and clear, now it's full of contradictions. Some of the old information is still there, but the new "angel" quotes are mixed in. For example -- In one place he says: The 24 elders are powerful angels assigned by God to be representatives of worlds that never sinned. Then he proves that Adam was the "son of God", the representative of this world. then he writes: The 24 elders are not cherubim nor seraphim because these two groups are distinguished from the 24 elders (Revelation 4:4, 10) They are not part of the angelic hosts because the angelic hosts are clearly distinguished from them. His whole presentation is now VERY confusing. Is Adam an Angel? From His study one could easily come to that conclusion that he was. Now if 'Strong Angel' is a tranlastion for us in our glorified state after we are changed, that would solve all the issues, when I get a chance will check the Hebrew/Greek text unless someone has done it already.
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Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4?
[Re: dedication]
#149528
02/11/13 03:30 PM
02/11/13 03:30 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
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People can have the appearance like angels.
I thought Bohr was saying the elders were people of other planets.
What am I missing?
I think what many are missing is that Bohr was saying the elders were the first created people of unfallen planets.
I think what many are missing is that Bohr was saying the elders were the first created people of unfallen planets.
His whole presentation is now VERY confusing.
Is seems safer to base one's views on something that is not confusing. I guess I fail to see how that is confusing to you. People can have the appearance like angels. I thought Bohr was saying the elders were people of other planets. How is that in conflict with what dedication said he said about elders being the first created people of unfallen planets? Not confusing to me. 
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Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4?
[Re: dedication]
#149529
02/11/13 03:32 PM
02/11/13 03:32 PM
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SDA
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When I read his study a few years ago it was logical and clear, now it's full of contradictions.
Some of the old information is still there, but the new "angel" quotes are mixed in.
For example --
Maybe we can have actual statements and in context before we judge the guy?
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Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4?
[Re: kland]
#149556
02/12/13 04:10 AM
02/12/13 04:10 AM
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I wasn't judging "the guy" I was commenting on his study. And I gave some actual statements from the study that is now posted on his website. The link has been posted before. http://secretsunsealed.org/Downloads/24Eldersweb.pdfI read his study on this subject about three years ago and we discussed it on another forum. It was clear and logical then. He was saying the "sons of God' were the heads of the unfallen worlds, like Adam was the head of this earth before his fall. The conclusion was the 24 elders were these representatives from the unfallen worlds. Not everyone agreed of course, but that is what we understood him to be saying. I recognize many of the statements in what is posted now: http://secretsunsealed.org/Downloads/24Eldersweb.pdfbut those quotes about angel's, and that angels were delegated to be representatives of the unfallen worlds, I don't remember any of that in the original study. It is those quotes which he has now put into the study that cause the confusion. For now part of the study seems to be saying the 24 elders are angels, while the rest of the study is still saying it is the first created from unfallen worlds.
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Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4?
[Re: dedication]
#149557
02/12/13 04:19 AM
02/12/13 04:19 AM
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Global Moderator
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The only logical bridge I can see between these two ideas, is that created beings from unfallen worlds look very much like the angels.
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Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4?
[Re: dedication]
#149558
02/12/13 06:04 AM
02/12/13 06:04 AM
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Group: Admin Team
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Yes, 1a) of living beings is a definition of a 'Strong Angel' so can be a living being, so there is no problem with one of the 24 elders being a 'Strong Angel'. Strong's #2478: ischuros (pronounced is-khoo-ros') from 2479; forcible (literally or figuratively):--boisterous, mighty(-ier), powerful, strong(-er, man), valiant. Thayer's Greek Lexicon: ̓́ ischuros 1) strong, mighty 1a) of living beings 1a1) strong either in body or in mind 1a2) of one who has strength of soul to sustain the attacks of Satan, strong and therefore exhibiting many excellences 1b) on inanimate things 1b1) strong, violent, forcibly uttered, firm, sure Part of Speech: adjective Relation: from G2479 Citing in TDNT: 3:397, 378 Read more: http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G2478/ischuros.htm#ixzz2KfLhyXUN
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Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4?
[Re: dedication]
#149570
02/12/13 04:54 PM
02/12/13 04:54 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
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Joined: Oct 2008
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The only logical bridge I can see between these two ideas, is that created beings from unfallen worlds look very much like the angels. That seems to be what was suggested by Johann's comment.
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