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Re: King James Version or RSV or NIV, does it matter? [Re: kland] #150113
02/27/13 05:33 AM
02/27/13 05:33 AM
Johann  Offline
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Retired Pastor
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: kland
So yes, all three would be good versions. An excellent demonstration to show a good reason to read more than one version.


This is very true because so often it is impossible to translate the original text fully. This is where it takes several translations to get the full meaning of the text.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: King James Version or RSV or NIV, does it matter? [Re: Elle] #150118
02/27/13 10:06 AM
02/27/13 10:06 AM
Rick H  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: Rick H
Originally Posted By: Daryl
I was referring to the language used by the various Bible writers which obviously was first translated by somebody, or a group of people, into their own language, and then subsequently translated into other languages by others.


The Jews considered every word in Canon to be Holy and would not changed them so the meaning would stay as intended. Now for example, look at the following and tell me what you see....

(Genesis 3:15, K)
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

(Genesis 3:15, N)
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

(Genesis 3:15, D)
"I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel."


Rick that's an interesting translation. I have to verify this text more closely and see if the D translation is more correct. Via googling this translation, D is the Douay-Rheims Bible which is a translation of the Bible from the Latin Vulgate into English. So I imagine the Catholic must rely on that translation.

I have a SDA friend that is a serious scripture student. He checks the Greek and Hebrew sources of words in his studies and has compared many translations. He told me that over the years doing this he found that the Catholic Bibles translation are more reliable(to the Hebrew and Greek word definition without distorting the meaning of the original text) than any of the protestant translations. I was quite surprise to hear that. So I verified his claim by checking a few of some mis-translations that I was aware of. In those verses checked, the translation in the Catholic Bible was better.

I don't have a Catholic Bible which I will procure in the futur, but I do have the Tenakh that I like to check their translation of difficult text from time to time. Gen 3:18 is one text that is in my to study list. So that's why your post pull my attention. Here is how the Tenakh translated Gen 3:18

The Tenakh Gen 3:18 [b]"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; They shall strike at your head, and you shall strike at their heel."

In the Scripture-for-all software, the literal translation read as follow :

Scripture-for-all Software of Gen 3:18: "and-enmity I-am-setting between-you and-between the-woman and-between your-seed and-between her-seed he he-shall-hurt-you head and-you you-shall-hurt-him heel"
You picked up on the clues, very good. Well you see how they subtely change it from the Seed, the Messiah, Christ, to the woman, the virgin Mary, and now you see how the worship of Mary could replace that of the Son of God.

Last edited by Rick H; 02/27/13 10:06 AM.
Re: King James Version or RSV or NIV, does it matter? [Re: Johann] #150119
02/27/13 10:17 AM
02/27/13 10:17 AM
Rick H  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: kland
So yes, all three would be good versions. An excellent demonstration to show a good reason to read more than one version.


This is very true because so often it is impossible to translate the original text fully. This is where it takes several translations to get the full meaning of the text.
That is the line of thought is what gets us into trouble, the true text does not vary, so the less translations the better. Thats why the Jews would not change even one word or the meaning could be shifted or taken out according to the purpose of the writer.

What do you see here......


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

1In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.2This one was in [the] beginning with God.3All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

Re: King James Version or RSV or NIV, does it matter? [Re: Rick H] #150159
02/28/13 10:40 AM
02/28/13 10:40 AM
Rick H  Offline
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I think people have to wake up and see if their version is corrupted by these writers who have changed Gods words with a purpose to confuse and deceive in the NIV, ASV, ESV, and others based on the Westcott/Hort, Nestle/Aland Alexandrian text.

John W Burgon gave good warning when he said:
"The impurity of the text exhibited by these codices is not a question of opinion but fact...In the Gospels alone, Codex B(Vatican) leaves out words or whole clauses no less than 1,491 times. It bears traces of careless transcriptions on every page…"

Re: King James Version or RSV or NIV, does it matter? [Re: Rick H] #150162
02/28/13 11:36 AM
02/28/13 11:36 AM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Rick H
I think people have to wake up and see if their version is corrupted by these writers who have changed Gods words with a purpose to confuse and deceive in the NIV, ASV, ESV, and others based on the Westcott/Hort, Nestle/Aland Alexandrian text.

John W Burgon gave good warning when he said:
"The impurity of the text exhibited by these codices is not a question of opinion but fact...In the Gospels alone, Codex B(Vatican) leaves out words or whole clauses no less than 1,491 times. It bears traces of careless transcriptions on every page…"
Rick, the KJV also is corrupted.

That's why any serious student need to verify the word from the Greek and Hebrew source and check its usage in multiple contexts in the Bible to derive its true meaning.

The Strong Concordance is important and the free software available at http://www.scripture4all.org/ makes studying a breeze showing the source manusctipt word written in Hebrew or Greek, strong ref code & definition, grammatical syntax, etc...


Blessings
Re: King James Version or RSV or NIV, does it matter? [Re: Rick H] #150168
02/28/13 02:06 PM
02/28/13 02:06 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
Originally Posted By: Rick H
Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: kland
So yes, all three would be good versions. An excellent demonstration to show a good reason to read more than one version.


This is very true because so often it is impossible to translate the original text fully. This is where it takes several translations to get the full meaning of the text.
That is the line of thought is what gets us into trouble, the true text does not vary, so the less translations the better. Thats why the Jews would not change even one word or the meaning could be shifted or taken out according to the purpose of the writer.
Like I say, I would go with accuracy. Maybe it was Green and not you saying versions which don't support one's beliefs are how you decide if it's incorrect? I would go with accuracy rather than favorite opinions. But how does one verify the transliteration was correctly done? Studying a variety of versions would help uncover discrepancies and give one pause to consider what may be correct.

Quote:

What do you see here......
I see you comparing one version/most versions with the Jehovah Witness's version. Not sure what relevance this has with the discussion. Is their version considered a valid one? If so, what about the reader's digest version? (Though that's probably not a fair comparison)

And diminishing the Vatican's, if Elle is correct, isn't that the most accurate (Assuming catholic is the same) of the verse you selected?

Re: King James Version or RSV or NIV, does it matter? [Re: Elle] #150177
02/28/13 03:48 PM
02/28/13 03:48 PM
Rick H  Offline
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Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: Rick H
I think people have to wake up and see if their version is corrupted by these writers who have changed Gods words with a purpose to confuse and deceive in the NIV, ASV, ESV, and others based on the Westcott/Hort, Nestle/Aland Alexandrian text.

John W Burgon gave good warning when he said:
"The impurity of the text exhibited by these codices is not a question of opinion but fact...In the Gospels alone, Codex B(Vatican) leaves out words or whole clauses no less than 1,491 times. It bears traces of careless transcriptions on every page…"
Rick, the KJV also is corrupted.

That's why any serious student need to verify the word from the Greek and Hebrew source and check its usage in multiple contexts in the Bible to derive its true meaning.

The Strong Concordance is important and the free software available at http://www.scripture4all.org/ makes studying a breeze showing the source manusctipt word written in Hebrew or Greek, strong ref code & definition, grammatical syntax, etc...


I would say it is not perfect, but at least the purpose was true to Gods intent, just the translators had to work with the information they had, not the overwhelming amount we have today. So yes they put in "Easter" instead of "Passover" and a few things here and there because of there limitted means, understandable and we can see and understand what was meant, but I will definitely be looking at that free software on http://www.scripture4all.org/, thanks.

Re: King James Version or RSV or NIV, does it matter? [Re: Rick H] #150183
02/28/13 05:47 PM
02/28/13 05:47 PM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
We see in this discussion the same problem as is facing the question of ordination. It is based on how we view the inspiration of the Bible.

On the one hand you have the view as expressed by Ellen White, most explicitly in the Introduction to the Great Controversy.

On the other hand you have the fundamentalist understanding of a number of the other protestant churches.

The third problem, as I see it, could be based on the book Questions On Doctrines This book was written while I attended the Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary and we followed the developments almost on a daily basis through 1) our teachers, 2) visiting chapel speakers, some of them working on the manuscript of the book, 3) articles in the MINISTRY, and then 4) the letters of M L Andreasen.

This is a strange problem because

1) The purpose of this book was to present the doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church to leaders and theologians of other Christian denominations in a language they would understand, and not in the jargon we Adventists were using among ourselves.

2) Now, more than 50 years later, some of our people who are opposed to QOD, use the fundamentalist language of some of the churches to whom this book was written to explain their view of Scripture in opposition to the EGW option, and at the same time they make the claims of being the conservative believers.

This is an unbelievable dilemma for our church today.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: King James Version or RSV or NIV, does it matter? [Re: Johann] #150185
02/28/13 07:44 PM
02/28/13 07:44 PM
Rick H  Offline
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Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,235
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Johann
We see in this discussion the same problem as is facing the question of ordination. It is based on how we view the inspiration of the Bible.

On the one hand you have the view as expressed by Ellen White, most explicitly in the Introduction to the Great Controversy.

On the other hand you have the fundamentalist understanding of a number of the other protestant churches.

The third problem, as I see it, could be based on the book Questions On Doctrines This book was written while I attended the Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary and we followed the developments almost on a daily basis through 1) our teachers, 2) visiting chapel speakers, some of them working on the manuscript of the book, 3) articles in the MINISTRY, and then 4) the letters of M L Andreasen.

This is a strange problem because

1) The purpose of this book was to present the doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church to leaders and theologians of other Christian denominations in a language they would understand, and not in the jargon we Adventists were using among ourselves.

2) Now, more than 50 years later, some of our people who are opposed to QOD, use the fundamentalist language of some of the churches to whom this book was written to explain their view of Scripture in opposition to the EGW option, and at the same time they make the claims of being the conservative believers.

This is an unbelievable dilemma for our church today.


Its not that bad, the changes in QOD were not readily explained and confused the grass roots member, even today you have to get a theologian to wade through some of it. The problem was that many pastors and teachers didnt read Ellen White, as if they had done so the whole problem would have been avoided. Just like today, if many pastors and teachers knew where the text from NIV and some of these others came from, they could avoid many of the issues on the GodHead, and nature of Christ that keep reoccuring. They just dont dig below the surface and see the truth of the matter.........

Re: King James Version or RSV or NIV, does it matter? [Re: Rick H] #150207
03/01/13 03:00 PM
03/01/13 03:00 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
Originally Posted By: Rick H
Just like today, if many pastors and teachers knew where the text from NIV and some of these others came from, they could avoid many of the issues on the GodHead, and nature of Christ that keep reoccuring. They just dont dig below the surface and see the truth of the matter.........
Maybe a specific example is in order?

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