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Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin
#15048
07/12/05 03:06 PM
07/12/05 03:06 PM
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SDA
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Southwest USA
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Okay, Phil, I guess we're not seeing it in the same light. I agree with Tom's insight that sin isn't separation, but rather separation is the result of sin. Sin causes a separation between God and man. Adam and Eve got it started when they sinned. We are born separated, therefore we must chose to be born again, to be reconnected to Christ, so that we can cease sinning and resume maturing in the fruits of Spirit.
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Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin
#15049
07/12/05 09:35 PM
07/12/05 09:35 PM
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I would like to clarify that sin separates *us* from God, not God from us. It causes us to be "alienated in our minds" (Col. 1). It causes us to become enemies of God (He's not our enemy) and our enmity must be healed in order for us to be reconciled. The only way this could be accomplished was for God to become one of us, so we could see how wonderful He really is, rather than being deceived by the lies which Satan and sin preach to us. The lies tell us that God cannot accept us, that He is angry, and must punish. The truth is that God loves and forgives; His justice is not retribution, but mercy and compassion. quote:
Thus says the LORD of hosts:
"Execute true justice,
Show mercy and compassion
Everyone to his brother.
(Zech 7:9)
This is God's justice: showing mercy and compassion.
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Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin
#15050
07/12/05 09:50 PM
07/12/05 09:50 PM
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OP
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Amen, Tom So right!
Yes, MM you are right. We do not see sin "in the same light", and that is why all are spending so much effort in attempting to get the Light in His true character to you.
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Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin
#15051
07/13/05 04:24 AM
07/13/05 04:24 AM
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Thank you, Phil. If you agree with Tom's insights regarding sin, then you and I are in agreement, too. Of course, our clearest disagreement is concerning God's part in the punishment and destruction of unsaved sinners. But that's a different topic.
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Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin
#15052
07/13/05 05:51 AM
07/13/05 05:51 AM
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HUH? MM I see neither Tom, John. B., Dave or myself agreeing with you, saying that we agree with you or implying that we do.
You need to go back and read my first post and Tom's last one before you make artificial impressesions that we agree with you.
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Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin
#15053
07/13/05 06:08 AM
07/13/05 06:08 AM
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I'll make this easy:
Tom states that Satan "... lies tell(ing) us that God cannot accept us, that He is angry, and must punish. The truth is that God loves and forgives; His justice is not retribution, but mercy and compassion."
John B. relates about "justifying ourselves, instead of letting God justify us."
Dave is researching and not quite finished studying the topic.
and I will say again:
"A definition seldom if ever considered is that it is a humanly devised solution to whatever problem is confronting the person...The truly important point is that each invention of a human solution rejects God as the Problem-solver. It is installing man in God's place, and, as such, is a definite movement away from God." This is making himself his own god.
Now in the light of this synopsis, can you still say that you fully agree, MM?
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Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin
#15054
07/13/05 07:56 PM
07/13/05 07:56 PM
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quote:
If you agree with Tom's insights regarding sin, then you and I are in agreement, too.
I am referring to his definition of sin. I didn't say anything about John or Dave. I definitely disagree with the idea that God does not, or has not, destroyed sinners using fire, water, humans, holy or evil angels. But that's a different topic. Here we're talking about the definition of sin.
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Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin
#15055
07/13/05 09:28 PM
07/13/05 09:28 PM
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Lawrence, Kansas
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I think this is what MM is saying he's agreeing with me: quote:
Sin isn't really separation from God, is it? Isn't that rather a result of sin?
Sin is transgression of the law, which is exceedinly broad (the law, that is). When we insist upon our own will rather than God's will, or insist on putting our own interests above all else, that is sin in its essence as I understand things. This disobedience leads to separation from God, which is tantamount to death.
[quote from DA]God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36.(DA 764)[end of DA quote]
This quote is how I see things:
1)One sins.
2)This separates one from God.
3)Which results in death.
Now MM says he disagrees regarding God's destruction of sinners, but this disagreement is vague since I don't think any of us disagrees that God destroys sinners. Where we disagree is regarding the process. We believe the following is true:
quote:
The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}
Since God's glory is simply His goodness, His character (Ex. 33:18 ff) it stands to reason that the wicked are not destroyed by some arbitrary action on God's part, but rather by virtue of their own sin.
The SAME THING which gives life to the righteous destroys the wicked, so it MUST be something different about the wicked which results in their destruction.
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Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin
#15056
07/14/05 02:48 AM
07/14/05 02:48 AM
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Re: A Different Viewpoint on Sin
#15057
07/14/05 03:35 AM
07/14/05 03:35 AM
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Ontario
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quote:
The truly important point is that each invention of a human solution rejects God as the Problem-solver.
This speaks of justifying ourselves, instead of letting God justify us.
Right Phil, I also meant this in a brass-tacks, reality-style and daily way, not in the cosmic sense; the effort at self-justification that people use daily, and it does not have to be big things either. I like to use the scriptural language, so that we would get the realization of the real meaning as opposed to the theoretical concept. So that in seeing one might be set free from participating in the spirit of Satan. The whole issue of the sin problem is in Satan wanting to justify himself. I really like the way you put it in the above sentence.
Another way of saying it is “doubt in God” and “faith in self”.
Another way of saying it is “wrong thinking” because of a “false concept of God” as Tom put it, and I likewise.
Another way of saying it is, not seeing or accepting God’s forgiveness and mercy.
Another way of saying it is, “Come let us reason together says the Lord…”
Another way of saying it is, pride and fear as opposed to humility and trust.
Another way of saying it is, being naked as opposed to clothed with God’s glory.
Another way of saying it is, “those who labor and are heavy laden”.
Another way of saying it is, “our righteousness” as opposed to “God’s righteousness”.
Hopefully this opens some ideas.
Sin brings about condemnation in the heart of the sinner.
In fact self-justification is what makes us guilty and condemned. It is not the initial transgression. The initial transgression opens the door for Satan to accuse us, but the effort of self-justification is what brings about condemnation and makes us “guilty” in such a way, as God says that he “can in no wise clear the “guilty”.
So as long as one is justifying himself he remains in that “guilty” state and God cannot help him until he turns to God trusting. Then God can give him the spirit of forgiveness and mercy whereby he will be set free from the condemnation of sin (self-justification) and cease to be the “guilty”.
This is a genuine reality experienced in the mind and heart of every transgressor. That is why they do all the things you mentioned to try to cover themselves. Those who think that sinners need somebody to condemn them, have a false concept of God and sin. All that is needed is a revelation of the transgression and the sinner’s own justice sets in (whatever it is). Every effort at self-justification only compounds the original problem.
[ July 14, 2005, 02:14 AM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]
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