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Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: APL] #150744
03/14/13 04:38 PM
03/14/13 04:38 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
God had the power to stop Satan in the beginning. Why didn't he?


I suppose God didn't, per your view, because that would make Him look like a destroyer, and sin would automatically self-destruct the sinner (Satan), with a grand display of fireworks, in precisely 7,100 years, so why not just wait for sin to have its natural effect?

Is this what you believe? Or do you believe that Satan would naturally desire to commit suicide at the end of the allotted time?

APL, we all understand very well the reason that God permitted sin to exist for a time. But let's face it--God does not permit sin forever. There is a limit to His mercy. Were it not thus, sin could exist forever. We, as humans, might be mortals. The Bible never once refers to angels, even the fallen ones, as mortals. They are immortal beings. Only God who created them can remove them.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: APL] #150745
03/14/13 05:02 PM
03/14/13 05:02 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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God did not stop Satan immediately because it would not have stopped the sin problem.

He let the lies of Satan run their course so the results could be witnessed by all of God's creation and this way the sin problem will never raise it's ugly head again after it is expunged.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: APL] #150746
03/14/13 05:30 PM
03/14/13 05:30 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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"...The teaching of this parable is illustrated in God’s own dealing with men and angels. Satan is a deceiver. When he sinned in heaven, even the loyal angels did not fully discern his character. This was why God did not at once destroy Satan. Had He done so, the holy angels would not have perceived the justice and love of God. A doubt of God’s goodness would have been as evil seed that would yield the bitter fruit of sin and woe. Therefore the author of evil was spared, fully to develop his character. Through long ages God has borne the anguish of beholding the work of evil, He has given the infinite Gift of Calvary, rather than leave any to be deceived by the misrepresentations of the wicked one; for the tares could not be plucked up without danger of uprooting the precious grain. And shall we not be as forbearing toward our fellow men as the Lord of heaven and earth is toward Satan? {COL 72.2}
The Saviour does not point forward to a time when all the tares become wheat. The wheat and tares grow together until the harvest, the end of the world. Then the tares are bound in bundles to be burned, and the wheat is gathered into the garner of God. “Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” Then “the Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” {COL 75.1}


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: Green Cochoa] #150747
03/14/13 05:39 PM
03/14/13 05:39 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
God had the power to stop Satan in the beginning. Why didn't he?


I suppose God didn't, per your view, because that would make Him look like a destroyer, and sin would automatically self-destruct the sinner (Satan), with a grand display of fireworks, in precisely 7,100 years, so why not just wait for sin to have its natural effect?

Is this what you believe? Or do you believe that Satan would naturally desire to commit suicide at the end of the allotted time?

APL, we all understand very well the reason that God permitted sin to exist for a time. But let's face it--God does not permit sin forever. There is a limit to His mercy. Were it not thus, sin could exist forever. We, as humans, might be mortals. The Bible never once refers to angels, even the fallen ones, as mortals. They are immortal beings. Only God who created them can remove them.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Green - you do not know the scriptures. Your assertion that angels are immortal fails. The angels are mortal. The Bible is very clear. There is only ONE being that is immortal. 1 Timothy 6:15-16 ... the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only has immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach to; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.

The end of Satan is sure. If he had been left to reap the natural consequences of his sin, he would have perished. The death of Christ is answers the question of how God is involved with the second death.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: APL] #150750
03/14/13 06:15 PM
03/14/13 06:15 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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You should cut GC some slack APL.

He is very knowledgeable and respectful of the truth.

The angels are not immortal without connection to God, they were created under probation just as we were, he was not immortal without God.

They can live longer in a fallen condition without access to God.

But I believe If Satan would have remained in the void of the pit after his fall, He is aging and would have died from old age.

But GC is correct on this issue. God is responsible for the destruction of the wicked angels because they cut themselves off from His mercy.

Just because he got that one point wrong does not make him wrong in his assessment.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: APL] #150752
03/14/13 07:00 PM
03/14/13 07:00 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
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The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
God had the power to stop Satan in the beginning. Why didn't he?


I suppose God didn't, per your view, because that would make Him look like a destroyer, and sin would automatically self-destruct the sinner (Satan), with a grand display of fireworks, in precisely 7,100 years, so why not just wait for sin to have its natural effect?

Is this what you believe? Or do you believe that Satan would naturally desire to commit suicide at the end of the allotted time?

APL, we all understand very well the reason that God permitted sin to exist for a time. But let's face it--God does not permit sin forever. There is a limit to His mercy. Were it not thus, sin could exist forever. We, as humans, might be mortals. The Bible never once refers to angels, even the fallen ones, as mortals. They are immortal beings. Only God who created them can remove them.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Green - you do not know the scriptures. Your assertion that angels are immortal fails. The angels are mortal. The Bible is very clear. There is only ONE being that is immortal. 1 Timothy 6:15-16 ... the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only has immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach to; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.

The end of Satan is sure. If he had been left to reap the natural consequences of his sin, he would have perished. The death of Christ is answers the question of how God is involved with the second death.


APL,

Thankfully I have access to the pure Word of God and am enabled by it to discern truth from error. The devil, in his temptations of Christ, also quoted scripture. Scripture must be properly used.

You improperly quoted the Bible. You left the elipses there to show that you had shortened your quote. The fuller quote gives us the fuller context, and if you start one verse before, you see exactly Who it is that "only has immortality." You see that it is the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the only immortal human. I'll quote the fuller passage for easy review.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and [before] Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
6:14 That thou keep [this] commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
6:15 Which in his times he shall show, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.


We can learn more about the immortal state of angels from Mrs. White.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
God, in counsel with His Son, formed the plan of creating man in His own image. Man was to be placed upon probation. He was to be tested and proved; if he should bear the test of God, and remain loyal and true through the first trial, he was not to be beset with continual temptations, but was to be exalted equal with the angels and made, thenceforth, immortal. {Con 10.1}


Remember, too, that Adam and Eve might have been immortal sinners, simply by continuing to eat of the Tree of Life.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
...The angels sorrowed, and feared lest Adam and Eve would again put forth the hand and eat of the tree of life and be immortal sinners. But God said that He would drive the transgressors from the garden, and by cherubim and a flaming sword would guard the way of the tree of life, so that man could not approach unto it and eat of its fruit, which perpetuates immortality. {EW 125.2}


This tells us that sin, in and of itself, does not kill. In fact, Satan had wanted Adam and Eve to become immortal sinners. The following statement implies that had they, after sinning, eaten of the Tree of Life again, they would have become immortal sinners.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The news of man's fall spread through heaven. Every harp was hushed. The angels cast their crowns from their heads in sorrow. All heaven was in agitation. A council was held to decide what must be done with the guilty pair. The angels feared that they would put forth the hand, and eat of the tree of life, and become immortal sinners. But God said that He would drive the transgressors from the garden. Angels were immediately commissioned to guard the way of the tree of life. It had been Satan's studied plan that Adam and Eve should disobey God, receive His frown, and then partake of the tree of life, that they might live forever in sin and disobedience, and thus sin be immortalized. But holy angels were sent to drive them out of the garden, and to bar their way to the tree of life. Each of these mighty angels had in his right hand something which had the appearance of a glittering sword. {EW 148.2}


That statement makes it appear as though they would have become "immortalized" by even once eating again of the Tree of Life. If such were not the case, at least Satan hoped so. But they didn't and we are all now mortals as well.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: Green Cochoa] #150754
03/14/13 09:10 PM
03/14/13 09:10 PM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: green
Thankfully I have access to the pure Word of God and am enabled by it to discern truth from error. The devil, in his temptations of Christ, also quoted scripture. Scripture must be properly used. 

You improperly quoted the Bible. You left the elipses there to show that you had shortened your quote. The fuller quote gives us the fuller context, and if you start one verse before, you see exactly Who it is that "only has immortality." You see that it is the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the only immortal human. I'll quote the fuller passage for easy review.
You see it is the Lorg Jesus Christ, God, who ONLY has immortality. You read this to say, the only human, but the verse is clear, only God has immortality. All things were created by Him, and for Him. Only in Him is life original.

Originally Posted By: green
We can learn more about the immortal state of angels from Mrs. White.
Read the quote, there are 2 things being talked about: "equal with the angels and made, thenceforth, immortal. "

Originally Posted By: green
Remember, too, that Adam and Eve might have been immortal sinners, simply by continuing to eat of the Tree of Life.
Did you read the key word? CONTINUING to eat. Man must continue to eat. I also bet that there will be a Tree of Life in from which man must continue to eat in the earth made new. Why? Man can still "opt out", still have free choice. You will also note that EGW says, "there is not an immortal sinner." Man is not immortal unless they eat of the tree of life. We will be immortal in the new earth, as long as we continue to eat. All will eat!

Originally Posted By: gree
This tells us that sin, in and of itself, does not kill. In fact, Satan had wanted Adam and Eve to become immortal sinners. The following statement implies that had they, after sinning, eaten of the Tree of Life again, they would have become immortal sinners.
Actually, this does not tell us exactly what sin would do. Satan's plans were interrupted, God stepped in (Genesis 3:15) and started executing the plan of redemption. The only time we actually have seen what the effects of sin would do, is at the Cross. Christ is the only one that has suffered the natural consequences of sin, demonstrating clearly the results of sin. God did not execute Christ. Sin killed Christ.

Originally Posted By: green
That statement makes it appear as though they would have become "immortalized" by even once eating again of the Tree of Life. If such were not the case, at least Satan hoped so. But they didn't and we are all now mortals as well.
Not once, but continually eating of the fruit. Even Satan has suffered the effects of sin and has changed. Sin is the killer. God is not the destroyer.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: APL] #150755
03/14/13 11:27 PM
03/14/13 11:27 PM
APL  Offline
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Quote:
But GC is correct on this issue. God is responsible for the destruction of the wicked angels because they cut themselves off from His mercy.
The angels cut THEMSELVES OFF, so GOD has to destroy them? Which is it? God destroys them, or they destory themselves?

The answer is that they destroy themselves.

One prominent theologian questions what is the difference if God pulls the plug or God pulls trigger? The problem is in his question! God does neither. He does not pull the plug nor pulls the trigger. God stops putting the plug back in after sinners pull the plug out. And He does this because freedom demands it.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: jamesonofthunder] #150756
03/14/13 11:33 PM
03/14/13 11:33 PM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
"...The teaching of this parable is illustrated in God’s own dealing with men and angels. Satan is a deceiver. When he sinned in heaven, even the loyal angels did not fully discern his character. This was why God did not at once destroy Satan. Had He done so, the holy angels would not have perceived the justice and love of God. A doubt of God’s goodness would have been as evil seed that would yield the bitter fruit of sin and woe. Therefore the author of evil was spared, fully to develop his character. Through long ages God has borne the anguish of beholding the work of evil, He has given the infinite Gift of Calvary, rather than leave any to be deceived by the misrepresentations of the wicked one; for the tares could not be plucked up without danger of uprooting the precious grain. And shall we not be as forbearing toward our fellow men as the Lord of heaven and earth is toward Satan? {COL 72.2}
The Saviour does not point forward to a time when all the tares become wheat. The wheat and tares grow together until the harvest, the end of the world. Then the tares are bound in bundles to be burned, and the wheat is gathered into the garner of God. “Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” Then “the Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” {COL 75.1}


Isaiah 33:14-15 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness has surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? 15 He that walks righteously, and speaks uprightly; he that despises the gain of oppressions, that shakes his hands from holding of bribes, that stops his ears from hearing of blood, and shuts his eyes from seeing evil;

The fire is the same. The righteous can live in it, the sinners are destroyed by it. Same fire! Sin destroys the sinner.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: APL] #150760
03/14/13 11:51 PM
03/14/13 11:51 PM
APL  Offline
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Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
EGW is so clear in Desire of Ages, it is hard to understand how it can be so perverted to declare that God executes sinners. People, change your mind and believe the Good News! Mark 1:14-15.

Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Malachi 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezekiel 28:6-19; Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. {DA 763.4}

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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