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Re: Pope Benedict XVI's resignation because of child abuse scandal?
[Re: JAK]
#151487
04/02/13 02:10 PM
04/02/13 02:10 PM
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FORMER-SDA
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I would interpret this to mean that the GC is the "voice of God."
Not much different from the RCC dogma of Papal Infalibility...
"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
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Re: Pope Benedict XVI's resignation because of child abuse scandal?
[Re: JAK]
#151492
04/02/13 04:51 PM
04/02/13 04:51 PM
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MM, what are you saying with these quotes? I believe she is saying what Jesus said about it: Christ gives power to the voice of the church. "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." No such thing is countenanced as one man's starting out upon his own individual responsibility and advocating what views he chooses, irrespective of the judgment of the church. God has bestowed the highest power under heaven upon His church. It is the voice of God in His united people in church capacity which is to be respected. 431 {CCh 241.4} "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matthew 18:18). When every specification which Christ has given has been carried out in the true, Christian spirit, then, and then only, Heaven ratifies the decision of the church, because its members have the mind of Christ, and do as He would do were He upon the earth.--Letter 1c, 1890. {3SM 22.1} "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of Heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven." The Roman church makes a wrong application of these words of Christ. They claim that he addressed them specially to Peter. Hence he is represented in works of art as carrying a bunch of keys, which is a symbol of trust and authority given to ambassadors and others in high positions. The words of Christ: "I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of Heaven," were not addressed to Peter alone, but to the disciples, including those who compose the Christian church in all ages. Peter was given no preference nor power above that of the other disciples. Had Jesus delegated any special authority to one of them, we would not find them so frequently contending among themselves as to who should be greatest. They would have at once submitted to the wish of their Master, and paid honor to the one whom he had selected as their head. {2SP 273.2}
But the Roman Catholic church claims that Christ invested Peter with supreme power over the Christian church, and that his successors are divinely authorized to rule the Christian world. In still another place Jesus acknowledges the same power to exist in all the church that is claimed to have been given to Peter alone, upon the authority of the text previously quoted: "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven." {2SP 274.1}
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Re: Pope Benedict XVI's resignation because of child abuse scandal?
[Re: JAK]
#151494
04/02/13 06:09 PM
04/02/13 06:09 PM
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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So we see that it is the OFFICE of POPE that is infalibile, not the man himself I would say it is the man when, in the exercise of his office, he defines a doctrine. Secondly, vicarius filii dei is not an official designation of the Pope, nor is it (as is erroneously reported) inscribed on his mitre. While the existence of the title vicarius filii dei is uncertain, its equivalent, vicar of Christ, is well known. The title [vicar of Christ] is now used in Catholicism to refer to the bishops[2] and more specifically to the Bishop of Rome (the pope).[3] ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicar_of_Christ )
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Re: Pope Benedict XVI's resignation because of child abuse scandal?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#151526
04/03/13 02:17 PM
04/03/13 02:17 PM
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Mountain Man, you did not really answer the question; you just posted more quotes.
To say "I believe she is saying what Jesus said about it:" means nothing. What is your interpretation of what EGW or Jesus is saying.
Be up front about your beliefs and stop hiding behind "he said/she said."
Exactly WHAT the Bible (or EGW) says is less important than HOW WE INTERPRET (OR UNDERSTAND) IT.
So state your understanding.
Last edited by JAK; 04/03/13 02:19 PM.
"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
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Re: Pope Benedict XVI's resignation because of child abuse scandal?
[Re: JAK]
#151528
04/03/13 02:24 PM
04/03/13 02:24 PM
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JAK, I believe decisions rendered during a General Conference Session reflect the will of God when every specification which Christ has given has been carried out in the true, Christian spirit, then, and then only, Heaven ratifies the decision of the church, because its members have the mind of Christ, and do as He would do were He upon the earth.
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Re: Pope Benedict XVI's resignation because of child abuse scandal?
[Re: Rosangela]
#151533
04/03/13 02:40 PM
04/03/13 02:40 PM
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I would say it is the man when, in the exercise of his office, he defines a doctrine. Unfortunately, this interpretation is not supported by a close reading of the dogma. Secondly, he is only infalible WHEN DEFINING A DOCTRINE. (which you yourself posted above.) My original statement that kland's idea (which led to this whole sub-discussion) that the man is infalible still stands. While the existence of the title vicarius filii dei is uncertain, its equivalent, vicar of Christ, is well known. What are you talking about? That sentence makes no sense. "Vicar" is used to refer to Bishops, and the Pope, as you have just stated above. However, "vicar" means "representative of" someone else, usually a higher power such as King, etc. It's where we get "vice" president, viceroy from, etc. In No CASE does vicar mean the actual person of higher power. Nor is it ever understood that way. So again, kland's statement that the Pope is god is incorrect. Neither the Pope himself nor anyone associated with him considers him god. We must divorce ourselves from incorrect ideas of what the other party is saying.
"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
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Re: Pope Benedict XVI's resignation because of child abuse scandal?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#151534
04/03/13 02:45 PM
04/03/13 02:45 PM
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JAK, I believe decisions rendered during a General Conference Session reflect the will of God when every specification which Christ has given has been carried out in the true, Christian spirit, then, and then only, Heaven ratifies the decision of the church, because its members have the mind of Christ, and do as He would do were He upon the earth. Excellent summary of your view on this. Well Done. It gives me something solid to consider. My only real question would be in regard to the word "when" which I have highlighted in bold above. The question would be "WHO determines when these conditions have been met?" But that is probably a discussion for another thread.
"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
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Re: Pope Benedict XVI's resignation because of child abuse scandal?
[Re: JAK]
#151535
04/03/13 03:17 PM
04/03/13 03:17 PM
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SDA
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I would say it is the man when, in the exercise of his office, he defines a doctrine. Unfortunately, this interpretation is not supported by a close reading of the dogma. Secondly, he is only infalible WHEN DEFINING A DOCTRINE. So if he is only a representative of Christ I suppose he could have multiple representatives as past history reveals. However, what about the doctrine of killing the opposing representatives of Christ? Or would you call that doctrine. "in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church". Seems to me that instructing the church to kill another would involve morals.
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Re: Pope Benedict XVI's resignation because of child abuse scandal?
[Re: kland]
#151536
04/03/13 03:21 PM
04/03/13 03:21 PM
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However, what about the doctrine of killing the opposing representatives of Christ? Or would you call that doctrine.
"in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church".
Seems to me that instructing the church to kill another would involve morals. What does that have to do with anything?  
"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
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