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Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: APL] #150853
03/17/13 04:33 PM
03/17/13 04:33 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: jsot
I only want to be treated with the same respect that you would demand as a man. No more, no less.
How should we treat others that show us disrespect?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: APL] #150855
03/17/13 05:11 PM
03/17/13 05:11 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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In bringing forth Israel from Egypt, the Lord again manifested His power and His mercy. His wonderful works in their deliverance from bondage and His dealings with them in their travels through the wilderness were not for their benefit alone. These were to be as an object lesson to the surrounding nations. The Lord revealed Himself as a God above all human authority and greatness. The signs and wonders He wrought in behalf of His people showed His power over nature and over the greatest of those who worshiped nature. God went through the proud land of Egypt as He will go through the earth in the last days. With fire and tempest, earthquake and death, the great I AM redeemed His people. {COL 286.4}


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: jamesonofthunder] #150861
03/17/13 07:00 PM
03/17/13 07:00 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
In bringing forth Israel from Egypt, the Lord again manifested His power and His mercy. His wonderful works in their deliverance from bondage and His dealings with them in their travels through the wilderness were not for their benefit alone. These were to be as an object lesson to the surrounding nations. The Lord revealed Himself as a God above all human authority and greatness. The signs and wonders He wrought in behalf of His people showed His power over nature and over the greatest of those who worshiped nature. God went through the proud land of Egypt as He will go through the earth in the last days. With fire and tempest, earthquake and death, the great I AM redeemed His people. {COL 286.4}
YES, and HOW did God cause all this? By withholding His protection.

Four mighty angels are still holding the four winds of the earth. Terrible destruction is forbidden to come in full. The accidents by land and by sea; the loss of life, steadily increasing, by storm, by tempest, by railroad disaster, by conflagration; the terrible floods, the earthquakes, and the winds will be the stirring up of the nations to one deadly combat, while the angels hold the four winds, forbidding the terrible power of Satan to be exercised in its fury until the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads. Get ready, get ready, I beseech you, get ready before it shall be forever too late! {RH, June 7, 1887 par. 13}

While appearing to the children of men as a great physician who can heal all their maladies, he will bring disease and disaster, until populous cities are reduced to ruin and desolation. Even now he is at work. In accidents and calamities by sea and by land, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hailstorms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power. He sweeps away the ripening harvest, and famine and distress follow. He imparts to the air a deadly taint, and thousands perish by the pestilence. These visitations are to become more and more frequent and disastrous. Destruction will be upon both man and beast. "The earth mourneth and fadeth away," "the haughty people . . . do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant." Isaiah 24:4, 5. {GC 589.3}

Satan is watching his chances to secure souls to himself and unless we have God's protection, he will break forth in violence and his angels will be set at work to do some marked mischief. The terrible tornadoes, the railroad disasters, the calamities at sea, are because of Satan's wrath. The Lord does not work a miracle to protect those who are constantly working against Himself and strengthening the power of darkness. And this is only the beginning. Their hearts will not repent because they are fully set in them to do evil and that continually. These disasters, which should make men afraid, are now regarded only by those who fear for their own personal safety, themselves and those connected with them.--Letter 3a, 1883. {3MR 318.2}

Originally Posted By: LDE - emphasis in the original
Judgments Come When God Removes His Protection

I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then, if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course, independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. {LDE 242.1}

It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey.--14MR 3 (1883). {LDE 242.2}

God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored.--PC 136 (1894). {LDE 242.3}

Already the Spirit of God, insulted, refused, abused, is being withdrawn from the earth. Just as fast as God's Spirit is taken away, Satan's cruel work will be done upon land and sea.--Ms 134, 1898. {LDE 242.4}

The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one.--GC 614 (1911). {LDE 242.5}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: APL] #150863
03/17/13 08:17 PM
03/17/13 08:17 PM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
As long as we do not agree on an understand of the nature of sin as taught by our Lord, there is no sense in taking part in this fruitless discussion. There is way too much non-SDA doctrines mixed into these discussions, as if this discussion is taking place to prepare Seventh-day Adventists a way to get along with the doctrines of the beast and its image.

We cannot come to any agreement here unless we have a better understanding of

1) the nature of sin

2) justification by faith

3) the meaning of death and eternal life

This means understanding our fundamentals. Without that this makes no sense. Let us rather have a study of these important subjects than bury ourselves in the work of our prime enemy and destroyer.

Pray for guidance and Spiritual maturity.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: APL] #150864
03/17/13 08:19 PM
03/17/13 08:19 PM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
In bringing forth Israel from Egypt, the Lord again manifested His power and His mercy. His wonderful works in their deliverance from bondage and His dealings with them in their travels through the wilderness were not for their benefit alone. These were to be as an object lesson to the surrounding nations. The Lord revealed Himself as a God above all human authority and greatness. The signs and wonders He wrought in behalf of His people showed His power over nature and over the greatest of those who worshiped nature. God went through the proud land of Egypt as He will go through the earth in the last days. With fire and tempest, earthquake and death, the great I AM redeemed His people. {COL 286.4}
YES, and HOW did God cause all this? By withholding His protection.

Four mighty angels are still holding the four winds of the earth. Terrible destruction is forbidden to come in full. The accidents by land and by sea; the loss of life, steadily increasing, by storm, by tempest, by railroad disaster, by conflagration; the terrible floods, the earthquakes, and the winds will be the stirring up of the nations to one deadly combat, while the angels hold the four winds, forbidding the terrible power of Satan to be exercised in its fury until the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads. Get ready, get ready, I beseech you, get ready before it shall be forever too late! {RH, June 7, 1887 par. 13}

While appearing to the children of men as a great physician who can heal all their maladies, he will bring disease and disaster, until populous cities are reduced to ruin and desolation. Even now he is at work. In accidents and calamities by sea and by land, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hailstorms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power. He sweeps away the ripening harvest, and famine and distress follow. He imparts to the air a deadly taint, and thousands perish by the pestilence. These visitations are to become more and more frequent and disastrous. Destruction will be upon both man and beast. "The earth mourneth and fadeth away," "the haughty people . . . do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant." Isaiah 24:4, 5. {GC 589.3}

Satan is watching his chances to secure souls to himself and unless we have God's protection, he will break forth in violence and his angels will be set at work to do some marked mischief. The terrible tornadoes, the railroad disasters, the calamities at sea, are because of Satan's wrath. The Lord does not work a miracle to protect those who are constantly working against Himself and strengthening the power of darkness. And this is only the beginning. Their hearts will not repent because they are fully set in them to do evil and that continually. These disasters, which should make men afraid, are now regarded only by those who fear for their own personal safety, themselves and those connected with them.--Letter 3a, 1883. {3MR 318.2}

Originally Posted By: LDE - emphasis in the original
Judgments Come When God Removes His Protection

I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then, if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course, independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. {LDE 242.1}

It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey.--14MR 3 (1883). {LDE 242.2}

God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored.--PC 136 (1894). {LDE 242.3}

Already the Spirit of God, insulted, refused, abused, is being withdrawn from the earth. Just as fast as God's Spirit is taken away, Satan's cruel work will be done upon land and sea.--Ms 134, 1898. {LDE 242.4}

The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one.--GC 614 (1911). {LDE 242.5}


AMEN!


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: Johann] #150869
03/18/13 02:10 AM
03/18/13 02:10 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Johann,

You, and most Adventists today, are missing the message of 1888. While justification is important, righteousness is more so. The entire conflict revolves around one single question: Is God's law just and possible to keep? Satan says it is not. Those who follow him also try to promote a salvation that is workless.

Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Many are teaching today that the commandments are of small consequence. There are various ways of promoting this error, from bending the rules to fit modern culture to teaching salvation by grace alone without its balancing perspective. Many are falling prey to these things.

When one does not have a proper realization of the seriousness of the crime committed by not keeping God's law--a crime so severe it caused the death of Jesus--one can hardly appreciate the intense hatred of sin which God must have, and the immense patience He has shown in keeping back His judgments so long. Yet, as the Bible says, He will not keep His anger forever. A time is coming when punishment will come. And God will punish.

I suppose it is a nice "warm fuzzy" message to think that God is all "sugar and spice and all things nice" with not a speck of harm in Him. Perfect love, however, sets boundaries. God has boundaries. His law demands the death of any of His subjects who chooses to break it. That is the "wages" of transgression. Punishment, including death, is promised to all who refuse the merciful pardon offered through the blood of Christ. God will not force anyone to receive Him. If they choose their own way, they must receive the punishment that God would rather not have administered to them.

Perhaps some folk here believe that God will not punish. The Bible and Mrs. White teach otherwise. Perhaps some here believe that God's punishments never include actual death. Again, the record shows otherwise. Be careful what you believe, for those who receive the mark are as well able to receive it in their foreheads for believing a lie as to receive it in their hands for their deeds.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
But few realize the exceeding sinfulness of sin. Men flatter themselves that God is too good to punish the transgressor. But in the light of Bible history it is evident that God's goodness and His love engage Him to deal with sin as an evil fatal to the peace and happiness of the universe. {PP 420.2}

Very few realize the sinfulness of sin; they flatter themselves that God is too good to punish the offender. But the cases of Miriam, Aaron, David, and many others show that it is not a safe thing to sin against God in deed, in word, or even in thought. God is a being of infinite love and compassion, but He also declares Himself to be a "consuming fire, even a jealous God" (RH Aug. 14, 1900). {3BC 1166.2}

(Matthew 26:36-46; Revelation 15:3.) Every Offense Set Down for Reckoning.--The death of Christ was to be the convincing, everlasting argument that the law of God is as unchangeable as His throne. The agonies of the Garden of Gethsemane, the insult, the mockery, and abuse heaped upon God's dear Son, the horrors and ignominy of the crucifixion, furnish sufficient and thrilling demonstration that God's justice, when it punishes, does the work thoroughly. The fact that His own Son, the Surety for man, was not spared, is an argument that will stand to all eternity before saint and sinner, before the universe of God, to testify that He will not excuse the transgressor of His law. Every offense against God's law, however minute, is set down in the reckoning, and when the sword of justice is taken in hand, it will do the work for impenitent transgressors that was done to the divine Sufferer. Justice will strike; for God's hatred of sin is intense and overwhelming (MS 58, 1897). {3BC 1166.3}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: Green Cochoa] #150870
03/18/13 03:04 AM
03/18/13 03:04 AM
Johann  Offline
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Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Sin is much worse than you portray it, GC. You need a Savior.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: Johann] #150871
03/18/13 03:22 AM
03/18/13 03:22 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Green - WHY does God hate sin? Because it destroys His creation. God will not suspect the consequences of SIN forever. Judgments some when God removes His protection.

From your point of view, God is to be more feared than Satan. In fact, the real problem with sin is that it makes God mad, and then he lashes out. Sin itself is not the problem per se, as it does not kill the sinner, God kills the sinner. Have I summarized your view correctly?



Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: APL] #150872
03/18/13 03:28 AM
03/18/13 03:28 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: EGW
The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}
And how was Jerusalem punished? God withdrew His protect. Sin is the problem, not God.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: APL] #150873
03/18/13 03:55 AM
03/18/13 03:55 AM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: EGw
The work of Christ in cleansing the leper from his terrible disease is an illustration of His work in cleansing the soul from sin. The man who came to Jesus was "full of leprosy." Its deadly poison permeated his whole body. The disciples sought to prevent their Master from touching him; for he who touched a leper became himself unclean. But in laying His hand upon the leper, Jesus received no defilement. His touch imparted life-giving power. The leprosy was cleansed. Thus it is with the leprosy of sin,--deep-rooted, deadly, and impossible to be cleansed by human power. "The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrefying sores." Isaiah 1:5, 6. But Jesus, coming to dwell in humanity, receives no pollution. His presence has healing virtue for the sinner. Whoever will fall at His feet, saying in faith, "Lord, if Thou wilt, Thou canst make me clean," shall hear the answer, "I will; be thou made clean." Matthew 8:2, 3, R. V. {DA 266.1}
Sin kills, sin is deadly. Not God. If you cling to sin, you will die. EGW in Steps to Christ shows that our struggle against is is difficult, it is the greatest battle ever fought!
Originally Posted By: EGW; Steps to Christ
The whole heart must be yielded to God, or the change can never be wrought in us by which we are to be restored to His likeness. By nature we are alienated from God. The Holy Spirit describes our condition in such words as these: "Dead in trespasses and sins;" "the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint;" "no soundness in it." We are held fast in the snare of Satan, "taken captive by him at his will." Ephesians 2:1; Isaiah 1:5, 6; 2 Timothy 2:26. God desires to heal us, to set us free. But since this requires an entire transformation, a renewing of our whole nature, we must yield ourselves wholly to Him. {SC 43.2}

The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God, requires a struggle; but the soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in holiness. {SC 43.3}

The government of God is not, as Satan would make it appear, founded upon a blind submission, an unreasoning control. It appeals to the intellect and the conscience. "Come now, and let us reason together" is the Creator's invitation to the beings He has made. Isaiah 1:18. God does not force the will of His creatures. He cannot accept an homage that is not willingly and intelligently given. A mere forced submission would prevent all real development of mind or character; it would make man a mere automaton. Such is not the purpose of the Creator. He desires that man, the crowning work of His creative power, shall reach the highest possible development. He sets before us the height of blessing to which He desires to bring us through His grace. He invites us to give ourselves to Him, that He may work His will in us. It remains for us to choose whether we will be set free from the bondage of sin, to share the glorious liberty of the sons of God. {SC 43.4}
God does not force His will on His creatures. If God executes sinners, is that not a forcing of His will? Absolutely! Does this mean that sinners will not feel the punishment of sin? NO! If you cling to sin, it will kill you! The wages of SIN, is death. Sin pays its wage.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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