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Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: APL] #150896
03/18/13 09:24 PM
03/18/13 09:24 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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You guys act like you are speaking for the whole church and GC and I are off base.

Here is our 27th fundamental belief.

27. Millennium and the End of Sin:
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)

The quotes you keep repeating are not even on the right subject, yet you keep asserting that we are not answering your questions. I believe I asked you first "were do the fires of hell come from?"

"While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {DD 60.2}"

Does this not mean that God reveals Himself to destroy the wicked? The act of revealing Himself destroys them. They put themselves there, and there is no doubt they are responsible for neglecting salvation, their shield, but God still has to act for them to be destroyed. This means they chose to be destroyed by neglecting the truth.

So by the efforts that have been made by God to save, he is the restorer, until He must reveal Himself to cleans the earth, so His strange act is destroying to cleanse in the end. That is why it is called a strange act. He does not want to do it and has proven that fact by allowing His Son to die in their place.

You look at this from our mortal perspective, like everything is revolving around us. But that is not the case. We are here to give glory to God. We are the fallen ones. Our perspective is of those marked for destruction from birth.

So in order for God to restore us and our world to God's image He MUST cleanse the earth, and He does this by revealing Himself. He knows what will happen when He does this. It's not as if He wanted it this way, Satan did, and he is given the title of their destroyer because of how he deceived them.

Why is the second death called "punishment'? Does He say OK now go punish yourselves? He has no delight in the punishment of the wicked but He does execute judgment.

“Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.” Psalm 11:6


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: Green Cochoa] #150897
03/18/13 09:30 PM
03/18/13 09:30 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: green
I'm saying that God is immortal, and that other beings are also immortal unless they sin.
AS I said, it is conditional. Only God has immortality and that is unconditional. You appear to be changing your tune, and for the better.
Originally Posted By: green
I have posted multiple passages from the Bible and EGW speaking of God destroying. Which of them can you agree with?
I have quoted MANY passages which tells us HOW destruction comes. Which ones do you disagree with?

Last edited by APL; 03/18/13 09:31 PM.

Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: Green Cochoa] #150898
03/18/13 09:42 PM
03/18/13 09:42 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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When we are with Christ in the Judgment in heaven what do we do there? Do we say "yes let them suffer at Satan's hand thus and thus amount of time?

"Then the wicked saw what they had lost; and fire was breathed from God upon them and consumed them. This was the execution of the judgment. The wicked then received according as the saints, in unison with Jesus, had meted out to them during the one thousand years. The same fire from God that consumed the wicked purified the whole earth. The broken, ragged mountains melted with fervent heat, the atmosphere also, and all the stubble was consumed. Then our inheritance opened before us, glorious and beautiful, and we inherited the whole earth made new. We all shouted with a loud voice, “Glory; Alleluia!” {EW 54.1}


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: APL] #150900
03/18/13 09:53 PM
03/18/13 09:53 PM
APL  Offline
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Green - you brought in the argument that angels are immortal. Specifically, that Satan is immortal and the only reason he dies, is that God executes him.

Is this what you believe?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: APL] #150901
03/18/13 10:28 PM
03/18/13 10:28 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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APL,

I don't disagree with the passages you've quoted. I disagree with your interpretation of them.

So do other passages.

Regarding the fallen angels and mortality, how many of them do you know who have died? Are there funerals for them? Will fallen angels be resurrected to face judgment? They are only "mortal" because their punishment is sure. Until then, they do not die, nor will they die until then. Even at Jesus' coming, when His glory extinguishes all other sinners on this earth, they will not die. Isn't that interesting? Apparently, it will take them a much larger dose of God's glory to be fatal. Yet they have sinned much more than we have. Have you an explanation for this dichotomy?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: Green Cochoa] #150902
03/18/13 10:31 PM
03/18/13 10:31 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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APL,

Answer this part:

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I have posted multiple passages from the Bible and EGW speaking of God destroying. Which of them can you agree with?


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: Green Cochoa] #150904
03/19/13 12:54 AM
03/19/13 12:54 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Posts: 3,613
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Brothers Kland, APL and Johann, I know you all want to continue to argue that God is not in charge of the destruction of the wicked. This is obvious because every opportunity you have on every thread you all make this observation.

I will make this last point and I will not answer you again on this subject unless you tell me the answer to this riddle.

"The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice." {LDE 241.2}

According to this statement, was it God who drowned the world. Was it God who rained fire on Sodom? Answer 'yes' or 'no' please. Thank you in Jesus' name amen.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: Green Cochoa] #150908
03/19/13 03:48 AM
03/19/13 03:48 AM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,
Answer this part:
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I have posted multiple passages from the Bible and EGW speaking of God destroying. Which of them can you agree with?

Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
This just shows that you have not heard, perhaps ignored? the argues I have made in this and other threads.

Did God kill Saul? The Bible says: 1 Chronicles 10:14 And inquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse. I ask again, did God kill Saul? The Bible says: 1 Chronicles 10:4 Then said Saul to his armor bearer, Draw your sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and abuse me. But his armor bearer would not; for he was sore afraid. So Saul took a sword, and fell on it.

It is clear what happened to Saul. The LORD takes responsibility for that which He permits. This is clear often in the Bible. So the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died (Numbers 21:6). Did God send the snake? How? EGW:Because they had been shielded by divine power they had not realized the countless dangers by which they were continually surrounded. In their ingratitude and unbelief they had anticipated death, and now the Lord permitted death to come upon them. The poisonous serpents that infested the wilderness were called fiery serpents, on account of the terrible effects produced by their sting, it causing violent inflammation and speedy death. As the protecting hand of God was removed from Israel, great numbers of the people were attacked by these venomous creatures (Patriarchs and Prophets, pp. 428, 429, emphasis added).

The story of Job is another very clear example. Did God cause all the pain an misery to Job? No, we know where it comes from. But what does the Bible say? Job 2:3 And the LORD said to Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that fears God, and eschews evil? and still he holds fast his integrity, although you moved me against him, to destroy him without cause.

How about the destruction of Jerusalem? I've asked this question before, no answer? “O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;” “for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.” Hosea 13:9; Hosea 14:1.

From a recently published book:
Originally Posted By: As He Is
When human beings destroy, they move toward the victim with deliberate intention to kill.
When God destroys, He moves away from the subject with no intention of killing.
When human beings destroy, they carry the weapons of death in their hands.
When God destroys, He carries no weapons but lays down control of the destructive powers.
When human beings destroy, they guide the sword to its target.
When God destroys, there is no personal administration of punishment. Whatever comes upon sinners is the outworking of the forces of death that they themselves have set in motion.
At this point two questions are apt to arise. The first is, what is the essential difference between the direct act of destroying or that of departing to leave the person to die? In both cases it is God’s action that brings about the destruction, and therefore, in each case, He is a destroyer.
This would be true if God’s withdrawal was His own act, but it is not. The fact is that He is driven away.
The truth of this is stated in a paragraph from Prophets and Kings.
Christ will never abandon those for whom He has died. We may leave Him and be overwhelmed with temptation, but Christ can never turn from one for whom He has paid the ransom of His own life (p. 176).
In view of the fact that Christ died for everyone, this statement is saying that it is impossible for Christ to turn away from anyone. People turn away from God. God cannot turn away from humanity. That is impossible.
The second question is this: If God does not in fact destroy, then why does He use this word to describe His actions? Does this not tend to make the Scriptures confusing?
Again, this is an excellent question. But this is the right word to use in describing God’s actions, for there is a deep and important sense in which it is true that He does destroy.
As the evidences gathered here unfold, it will be seen that God comes to humanity in one role only, which is as a Savior. But the effect of that effort is not always a saving one. With the majority, the effect is to harden them in rebellion and to cause them to withdraw themselves from the voice of loving entreaty. Thus God destroys by trying to save. The more He exerts His saving power, the more that people reject His offer, thus leading to destruction. It is in this sense that He destroys.
This principle of truth is spelled out with great clarity in the following statement:
It is not God that blinds the eyes of men or hardens their hearts. He sends them light to correct their errors, and to lead them in safe paths; it is by the rejection of this light that the eyes are blinded and the heart hardened. Often the process is gradual, and almost imperceptible. Light comes to the soul through God’s word, through His servants, or by the direct agency of His Spirit; but when one ray of light is disregarded, there is a partial benumbing of the spiritual perceptions, and the second revealing of light is less clearly discerned. So the darkness increases, until it is night in the soul. Thus it had been with these Jewish leaders. They were convinced that a divine power attended Christ, but in order to resist the truth, they attributed the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan. In doing this they deliberately chose deception; they yielded themselves to Satan, and henceforth they were controlled by his power (The Desire of Ages, pp. 322, 323).
It is not God that puts the blinder before the eyes of men or makes their hearts hard; it is the light which God sends to his people, to correct their errors, to lead them in safe paths, but which they refuse to accept,―it is this that blinds their minds and hardens their hearts (The Review and Herald, October 21, 1890).


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: jamesonofthunder] #150909
03/19/13 03:50 AM
03/19/13 03:50 AM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Brothers Kland, APL and Johann, I know you all want to continue to argue that God is not in charge of the destruction of the wicked. This is obvious because every opportunity you have on every thread you all make this observation.

I will make this last point and I will not answer you again on this subject unless you tell me the answer to this riddle.

"The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice." {LDE 241.2}

According to this statement, was it God who drowned the world. Was it God who rained fire on Sodom? Answer 'yes' or 'no' please. Thank you in Jesus' name amen.
Read one or two more paragraphs down in the same book you quoted, and you have your answer clear as day. "Judgments Come When God Removes His Protection"

And see my response above.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Love me or I'll kill you! [Re: APL] #150910
03/19/13 04:02 AM
03/19/13 04:02 AM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: green
I don't disagree with the passages you've quoted. I disagree with your interpretation of them.

So do other passages.

Regarding the fallen angels and mortality, how many of them do you know who have died? Are there funerals for them? Will fallen angels be resurrected to face judgment? They are only "mortal" because their punishment is sure. Until then, they do not die, nor will they die until then. Even at Jesus' coming, when His glory extinguishes all other sinners on this earth, they will not die. Isn't that interesting? Apparently, it will take them a much larger dose of God's glory to be fatal. Yet they have sinned much more than we have. Have you an explanation for this dichotomy?


The answer lies in a subject called, "the Great Controversy". 1 Corinthians 6:2-3 Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know you not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?. When Satan sinned and was cast out of heaven, he was beyond saving. When he caused man to sin, and the plan of redemption was instituted for man, Satan claimed that if man could be restored, angels could be also. But they cannot. Why? Because they were hopeless ruined. This fact will need to be explored and confirmed. The millenium will be the time their review will take place. As to God's glory, are the fallen angels in His glory now? Nope. Man - no man can see His face and live. Why? On the day of final judgment, the universe will revert back to its normal state. God's glory will return. It will impart life to the righteous, and will slay the wicked. See what I posted a couple of posts up.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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