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Re: Is the date of the second coming fixed or flexible?
#15106
07/29/05 04:14 AM
07/29/05 04:14 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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The title of this thread is "Is the date of the Second Coming fixed or flexible?" You seem to be arguing that it is fixed. That's not tradional SDAism, and not in harmony with what the Spirit of Prophesy wrote. If it is your view that the Spirit of Prophesy is saying that there is a fixed date for Christ's return, how do you explain the many statements which imply it isn't fixed? For example: quote:
It is true that time has continued longer than we expected in the early days of this message. Our Saviour did not appear as soon as we hoped. But has the Word of the Lord failed? Never! It should be remembered that the promises and the threatenings of God are alike conditional.
It was not the will of God that the coming of Christ should be thus delayed.(Ev 695)
quote:
"Had Adventists, after the great disappointment in 1844, held fast their faith, and followed on unitedly in the opening providence of God, receiving the message of the third angel and in the power of the Holy Spirit proclaiming it to the world, they would have seen the salvation of God, the Lord would have wrought mightily with their efforts, the work would have been completed, and Christ would have come ere this to receive His people to their reward.
"But in the period of doubt and uncertainty that followed the disappointment, many of the Advent believers yielded their faith. Dissensions and divisions came in. The majority opposed with voice and pen the few who, following in the providence of God, received the Sabbath reform and began to proclaim the third angel's message. Many who should have devoted their time and talents to the one purpose of sounding warning to the world, were absorbed in opposing the Sabbath truth, and in turn, the labor of its advocates was necessarily spent in answering these opponents and defending the truth. Thus the work was hindered, and the world was left in darkness. Had the whole Adventist body united upon the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, how widely different would have been our history!" --Selected Messages, book 1, p. 68.
In connection to the 1888 message, she wrote:
quote:
"Had the purpose of God been carried out by His people in giving to the world the message of mercy, Christ would, ere this, have come to the earth, and the saints would have received their welcome into the city of God."—6 Testimonies, 450; Evangelism, 694 (1900).
"I know that if the people of God had preserved a living connection with Him, if they had obeyed His Word, they would today be in the heavenly Canaan."—General Conference Bulletin, March 30, 1903; Evangelism, 694.
And then there's this famous statement:
quote:
"I was shown the company present at the Conference, Said the angel: "Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus." Ellen G. White, 1Testimonies, p. 131-132. May 27,1856
How many of this crowd lived to see the coming of Christ? How does this statement fly in the face of a fixed date for Christ's coming? If it were fixed for some time yet in the future for us here in the third millenium, why would God commission an angel to say those alive in 1856 would live to see it?
God has appointed a day, but it's not a fixed date and time, as you are thinking of it, but a day when His people hear His voice and respond to the message which He has sent. God had intended that this would happen around 1888, but that didn't happen. Those people in the food for worms vision all died, because the message which God sent was not heeded.
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Re: Is the date of the second coming fixed or flexible?
#15107
07/29/05 04:41 AM
07/29/05 04:41 AM
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OP
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The many quotes you posted do not say God doesn't know the day and hour Jesus will return. They merely say what might have happened if the church hadn't failed, but they cannot be construed to mean God has not appointed a fixed date for the return of Christ.
1. Why hasn't Jesus returned yet?
2. When has God used the specific phrase "day and hour" to mean anything other than a precise point in time? Did He ever use it to mean an indefinite, unspecified date, as in the expression - one of these days?
3. Where does it plainly say (not inferred or implied, which is subject to personal opinion) that God doesn't know the exact day and hour of Jesus' coming?
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Re: Is the date of the second coming fixed or flexible?
#15108
07/29/05 08:24 AM
07/29/05 08:24 AM
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Just out of curiosity we are not trying to set a date and time ourselves right?
Jesus said no man knoweth, but the Father, and Jesus also said that when the Gospel has gone out to the world then will He come.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Is the date of the second coming fixed or flexible?
#15109
07/30/05 02:46 AM
07/30/05 02:46 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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MM: The many quotes you posted do not say God doesn't know the day and hour Jesus will return. Tom: The title of the thread, which you started, and which I've pointed out, is "Is the date of the Second Coming fixed or flexible?" I have been arguing that the future is not fixed. If you wish to discuss God's foreknowledge, perhaps you would like to open a thread for that. I have nowhere stated that God does not know the day and hour Jesus will return. I have not been arguing anything regarding God's foreknowledge, other than it is perfect and He knows the future just as it is, which I've stated many times. MM: They merely say what might have happened if the church hadn't failed, but they cannot be construed to mean God has not appointed a fixed date for the return of Christ. Tom: Logically they imply the future is not fixed, which is the point I was making. If the future is fixed, then we cannot hasten Christ's coming, can we? If the future is fixed, then Christ could not have come in the past, right? MM: 1. Why hasn't Jesus returned yet? Tom: quote:
Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69.1}
It is the privilege of every Christian not only to look for but to hasten the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, (2 Peter 3:12, margin). Were all who profess His name bearing fruit to His glory, how quickly the whole world would be sown with the seed of the gospel. Quickly the last great harvest would be ripened, and Christ would come to gather the precious grain. {COL 69.2}
MM: 2. When has God used the specific phrase "day and hour" to mean anything other than a precise point in time? Did He ever use it to mean an indefinite, unspecified date, as in the expression - one of these days?
Tom: You're just assuming your conclusion here, aren't you? Here's what God has prophesied:
quote:
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.(Jer. 18:7-10)
The fact that we can hasten Christ's coming shows the date is not fixed. That's pretty obvious, isn't it?
quote:
11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God (2 Pet. 3:11, 12)
MM: 3. Where does it plainly say (not inferred or implied, which is subject to personal opinion) that God doesn't know the exact day and hour of Jesus' coming?
Tom: Once again, you may wish to open a thread discussing this topic. My point is that the future is not fixed. We really can hasten or delay Christ's coming. In fact, we already have delayed it. E.g.
quote:
An unwillingness to yield up preconceived opinions, and to accept this truth, lay at the foundation of a large share of the opposition manifested at Minneapolis against the Lord's message through Brethren {E.J.} Waggoner and {A.T.} Jones. By exciting that opposition Satan succeeded
235
in shutting away from our people, in a great measure, the special power of the Holy Spirit that God longed to impart to them. The enemy prevented them from obtaining that efficiency which might have been theirs in carrying the truth to the world, as the apostles proclaimed it after the day of Pentecost. The light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory was resisted, and by the action of our own brethren has been in a great degree kept away from the world. (1SM 234, 235)
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Re: Is the date of the second coming fixed or flexible?
#15110
07/29/05 04:43 PM
07/29/05 04:43 PM
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OP
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quote:
The title of the thread, which you started, and which I've pointed out, is "Is the date of the Second Coming fixed or flexible?" I have been arguing that the future is not fixed. If you wish to discuss God's foreknowledge, perhaps you would like to open a thread for that.
Pardon me for not making it clearer in the title. I assumed people understood the question to mean “fixed” or “appointed” by God based on His knowledge of the future. God wouldn't just arbitrarily pick a day in the future, would He? So, obviously this discussion involves God's foreknowledge.
quote:
Logically they imply the future is not fixed, which is the point I was making.
Only if you assume the date of Christ’s coming is not fixed or appointed. Otherwise, there are other things it can infer.
quote:
The fact that we can hasten Christ's coming shows the date is not fixed. That's pretty obvious, isn't it?
No. You are assuming it cannot mean anything else.
quote:
Originally posted by MM:
3. Where does it plainly say (not inferred or implied, which is subject to personal opinion) that God doesn't know the exact day and hour of Jesus' coming?
This question is relevant to the topic, so please, unless you absolutely object, answer it.
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Re: Is the date of the second coming fixed or flexible?
#15111
07/29/05 09:34 PM
07/29/05 09:34 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Old Tom: The title of the thread, which you started, and which I've pointed out, is "Is the date of the Second Coming fixed or flexible?" I have been arguing that the future is not fixed. If you wish to discuss God's foreknowledge, perhaps you would like to open a thread for that. MM: Pardon me for not making it clearer in the title. I assumed people understood the question to mean “fixed” or “appointed” by God based on His knowledge of the future. Tom: Ok. I understood the question to be if there was a fixed day, period. It doesn't matter why the day is fixed for the arguments I have been making. I have been arguing that the day cannot be fixed (by which I mean, it cannot happen on any other date than the fixed date, which I assume you agree with). MM: God wouldn't just arbitrarily pick a day in the future, would He? So, obviously this discussion involves God's foreknowledge. Tom: No, God isn't arbitrary. In fact, God has revealed to us how He chooses the day: quote:
Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69.1}
Note that Christ (who is God) is "waiting with longing desire". It makes no sense for the Diety to be "waiting with longing desire" if the thing can only happen when the Diety has determined it should happen.
Old Tom: Logically they imply the future is not fixed, which is the point I was making.
MM: Only if you assume the date of Christ’s coming is not fixed or appointed. Otherwise, there are other things it can infer.
Tom: "Infer" means "deduce: reason by deduction; establish by deduction." "Imply" is what you meant.
You didn't support your assertion with any logic. This communication will be clearer if I repost a little bit:
Old MM: They merely say what might have happened if the church hadn't failed, but they cannot be construed to mean God has not appointed a fixed date for the return of Christ.
Old Tom: Logically they imply the future is not fixed, which is the point I was making. If the future is fixed, then we cannot hasten Christ's coming, can we? If the future is fixed, then Christ could not have come in the past, right?
Tom: To this last comment you wrote, "Only if you assume the date of Christ’s coming is not fixed or appointed. Otherwise, there are other things it can infer."
Here's my point. The SOP wrote that we can hasten Christ's coming, that Christ is waiting for longing desire to come again. I stated that these statements logically imply that the future is not fixed, because clearly we cannot hasten a date (which means to cause a given event to occur sooner than it otherwise would have occured had we not acted) if it is fixed. Similarly it's silly to assert that Christ is "waiting with longing desire" for something He knows won't happen, and has known as such for all eternity. In another location EGW wrote that Christ was "disappointed" that He could not return, which also doesn't make sense if there's a fixed date.
Now you wrote that my inferences were only valid if I assumed that Christ's coming is not fixed, which is not something you can legitamately respond, because this is the very thing I was logically showing cannot be the case.
In other words, I argued:
1)A is true.
2)Therefore it follows that B is not true.
To which you responded, "Only if you assume B is not true." which is a rediculous thing to write in response to such an argument. I'm not assuming anything about B; I'm proving it!
You should respond that 1), not 2), is a groundless assumption, if that's what you think, but not 2), because 2) is a conclusion, not an assumption.
Old Tom:The fact that we can hasten Christ's coming shows the date is not fixed. That's pretty obvious, isn't it?
MM: No. You are assuming it cannot mean anything else.
Tom: "Hasten" means: "induce: cause to occur rapidly." If Christ's coming can be hastened, that means it can be induced to occur rapidly. I'm not assuming anything here; just stating the phrase according to the ordinary usage of English.
What do you think the phrase "hasten the coming of Christ" means?
Old MM:
3. Where does it plainly say (not inferred or implied, which is subject to personal opinion) that God doesn't know the exact day and hour of Jesus' coming?
This question is relevant to the topic, so please, unless you absolutely object, answer it.
Tom: I haven't been arguing this, so I have no need to respond, other than to say I haven't been arguing this, so there's no reason for me to produce such a statement.
I've been arguing that the future is not fixed, and I have been presenting evidence for that view.
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Re: Is the date of the second coming fixed or flexible?
#15112
07/30/05 01:03 AM
07/30/05 01:03 AM
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God's fore-knowing is not His fore-ordaining.
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Re: Is the date of the second coming fixed or flexible?
#15113
08/04/05 02:46 AM
08/04/05 02:46 AM
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OP
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The Bible and the SOP plainly say that God knows the day and hour Jesus will return, and that He has known it from eternity. The words "specified", "fixed", "appointed" as they apply to the day and hour of Jesus' coming are biblical and inspired. They are not my words. How do you explain it?
GC 548
Here the apostle plainly stated that a specified time, then future, had been fixed upon for the judgment of the world. {GC 548.2}
Question: if it is not plainly stated that there is a specified time and fixed date, why, then, does it say so?
5BC 1126
As a man He will come again with power and glory, to receive His children. And that which should cause us joy and thanksgiving is, that God "hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained." {5BC 1126.2}
Question: if the day hasn't been appointed, why does it say so?
DA 632, 633
But the day and the hour of His coming Christ has not revealed. He stated plainly to His disciples that He Himself could not make known the day or the hour of His second appearing. Had He been at liberty to reveal this, why need He have exhorted them to maintain an attitude of constant expectancy? There are those who claim to know the very day and hour of our Lord's appearing. Very earnest are they in mapping out the future. But the Lord has warned them off the ground they occupy. The exact time of the second coming of the Son of man is God's mystery. {DA 632.4}
Question: if God doesn't know the "exact time" of Christ's coming then the option to "reveal" it wasn't even available to Jesus, which means the above insight is "silly" and "ridiculous".
FE 335
... but the day and hour of His appearing are beyond the ken of man; for "of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only." But there is a day that God hath appointed for the close of this world's history. ... The day is at hand when the destiny of every soul will be fixed forever. This day of the Lord hastens on apace. {FE 335.2}
Observation: if God doesn't know the exact day and hour Jesus will return then this insight is also silly and ridiculous. Notice how she uses the word "hasten" in this paragraph.
EV 579
The predictions of prophecy will be fulfilled.--Manuscript 75, 1905. {Ev 579.1}
Question: why does she use the word "predictions" if, as you (Tom) have suggested elsewhere, is not the right word?
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Re: Is the date of the second coming fixed or flexible?
#15114
08/03/05 03:27 PM
08/03/05 03:27 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
The Bible and the SOP plainly say that God knows the day and hour Jesus will return, and that He has known it from eternity. The words "specified", "fixed", "appointed" as they apply to the day and hour of Jesus' coming are biblical and inspired. They are not my words. How do you explain it?
Tom: The Bible and the SOP plainly say that the future is not fixed. The words "hasten", "delay", and "risk" as they apply to the day and hour of Jesus' coming are biblical and inspired. They are not my words. How do you explain it?
quote:
11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
quote:
Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss. (DA 49)
I could quote many more, but I don't see the point.
What needs to be done is to think through the implications of whatever point of view is taken. Obviously there are quotes which appear to support the alternative point of view. Simply citing the quotes which support your point of view, while ignoring the others, really isn't helpful, MM. We've been following a pattern for quite a long time where I have answered your questions, but you have (usually, not always) avoided mine. I have spent a great deal of time laying out arguments, which you still haven't responded to, while I have not avoided any of your questions or arguments.
My arguments revolve around the concept that if the future is fixed, then we do not have actual freedom, but only the appearance of freedom. There is no question this is true. You should acknowledge this point, and then we could go on from there. Instead of acknowledging this, you sidetrack to the question of whether God's foreknowledge causes us to do whatever He sees, which I have never asserted. So please acknowledge the following point, but I would like to continue my argument, but I would like to see that you have acknowledged this self-evident truth:
If the future is fixed, then we do no have freedom of choice.
We have instead a perception that our choices are free, but not the reality, because if the future is fixed, we can only always do but one thing at any point of time, and the definition of "freedom of choice" involves the ability to choose to do, and actually do, more than one thing at a given time.
Please note that my assertion does not involve God's foreknowledge. It is not a question of perspective, but of reality (that is, it is not discussing that the future appears fixed to God, but not to us).
Returning to your quotes from the Spirit of Prophesy, she tells us:
quote:
The testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as scripture is explained by scripture (1SM 42).
Now given that the Spirit of Prophesy has written statements such as the one quoted above in DA 49, one can see she did not hold to a deterministic view of the future. Clearly if God took a risk in sending Christ, the future is not fixed, because God sees the future perfectly, and in this case He would have seen that without doubt Christ would be successful. Hence there couldn't have been any risk.
She also wrote in 1856 that Christ would come within the lifetime of that generation. Some of those at that campmeeting would be alive when Christ returned. How do you explain this, MM? If the view of things you have were correct, how could she possibly have written anything like this?
quote:
"I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel, 'Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.' "
So I would say that since the testimonies should interpret the testimonies, that since there is clear evidence she did not view the future as fixed, it was not her intention to suggest that it is fixed in the quotations you cited. Before suggesting what she actually meant in the quotes you provided, I will ask if you agree with this (the part in bold).
BTW, nice to see you are back.
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Re: Is the date of the second coming fixed or flexible?
#15115
08/03/05 05:16 PM
08/03/05 05:16 PM
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Thank you. It is good to be back. quote:
If the future is fixed, then we do no have freedom of choice.
Unless knowing what we will choose, before we choose it, does not make us robots. I realize you believe this insight has absolutely no bearing on the topic. But you and I perceive the future differently. I believe it is based on what God knows we are going to choose to do, which means we are free to choose. You believe God is only aware of all the possible choices, but that He has no way of knowing in advance which one we will choose.
But are we any more or less free if our choices are limited to the ones God can foresee? Total freedom would require, according to your view, that God does not know all the possible choices we might make.
Again, you are assuming the “risk” quote absolutely means God did not know Jesus if would fail or succeed on the cross. Based on this assumption, therefore, you are convinced God does not know the future like a rerun. You also seem to be convinced that any and every quote that says Jesus could have returned ere this clearly teaches that God has no idea when Jesus will return.
As I see it, nothing she has written can be forced to mean she did not mean what she said in the quotes I posted, namely, God has known from eternity when Jesus will return.
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