I believe God took a risk in sending His Son. I believe the future is not fixed. If God knows something will happen with 100% certainty, then that thing will certainly happen, right? That would mean there would be no risk, which contradicts the first thing I said. Therefore God could not know with 100% certainty that Christ would succeed. I think I've written this over a dozen times by now. I don't know which part of this is not clear.

I've got no idea what your posting. Here's what I believe:

1) The future is not fixed.
2) God knows the future perfectly, just as it is.
3) There is nothing which God does not know (which is knowable)
4) God sent His Son at the risk of failture and eternal loss. This is not hyperbole.
5) It was not inevitable, or planned, that sin should occur.

My understanding is that you believe the following:
1) The future is fixed.
2) Even though the future is fixed, we still can choose to do what we want.
3) God did not take a risk in sending His Son.
4) Sin was inevitable.
5) God is the author of sin.

You do not seem to realize that 1) and 2) contradict each other. That is, they are mutually exclusive.

I'd be interested if you agree with my understandings of what you believe.

I wouldn't put either thing the way you have, MM. I would put it the way I do put it. Regarding Christ's coming I would say that His coming is not fixed; that is, the date is not fixed. Christ could have come in the past, and there are differnt times in the future in which He may come. God knows all of these dates. Which date actually happens depends on us.

If the future is not fixed in the mind of God, according to His divine hindsight, how can He know any date, not to mention several of them? Since the future is so totally dependent on the zillions of choices billions of people have yet to make, and since, according to your view, God does not know in advance exactly which choices will be made, how can anything He knows about the future be of any value? The zillions of possible outcomes would render such knowledge useless. How can He prophesy anything about the future given the fact it could be wrong for a zillion different reasons? Being wrong is a sign of a false prophet, right?

If, as you say, God doesn't know the exact day and hour Jesus will return, if He is only aware of "a vast web of options and possibilities" [which is a phrase that grossly understates the infinite possible outcomes], why, then, are you unwilling to say God doesn't know, right now, out of all the possible dates Jesus could return, precisely which date is the one Jesus will definitely return on? Why would it be wrong to say so? What are you afraid of?

MM: If the future is not fixed in the mind of God, according to His divine hindsight, how can He know any date, not to mention several of them? Since the future is so totally dependent on the zillions of choices billions of people have yet to make, and since, according to your view, God does not know in advance exactly which choices will be made, how can anything He knows about the future be of any value? The zillions of possible outcomes would render such knowledge useless. How can He prophesy anything about the future given the fact it could be wrong for a zillion different reasons? Being wrong is a sign of a false prophet, right?

Tom: Jonah's prophesy didn't come true, but he wasn't a false prophet. Ellen White said:

quote:

---

"I was shown the company present at the Conference, Said the angel: "Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus." Ellen G. White, 1Testimonies, p. 131-132. May 27,1856

---

Does this make her a false prophet? That's what the anti-SDA sights say.

YOu seem to have the idea that the future must be fixed in order for God to see it, but there's no reason this should be the case. Take a game of tic-tac-toe. It's possible to foresee every possible game. The end of a chess game can be like this too. A chess player can see every possible ending, if there's a small enough number of possibilities. God's intelligence is not limited, so He can see every possibility.

Not only does God see every possibility, God is not merely an onlooker. He can and does move to bring about His will. He is hampered by the fact that many FMA's refuse to cooperate with Him, but in spite of this He will succeed in the end. We have a role in how quickly He will succeed.

MM: If, as you say, God doesn't know the exact day and hour Jesus will return, if He is only aware of "a vast web of options and possibilities" [which is a phrase that grossly understates the infinite possible outcomes], why, then, are you unwilling to say God doesn't know, right now, out of all the possible dates Jesus could return, precisely which date is the one Jesus will definitely return on? Why would it be wrong to say so? What are you afraid of?

Tom: I'm afraid of being misunderstood and misrepresented. I have said things the way I want to.

Old Tom:I'm afraid of being misunderstood and misrepresented. I have said things the way I want to.

MM: That explains why you haven’t been forthcoming in answering my questions. Fair enough, though. I will not insist that you answer my questions any more.

Tom: Almost every time I reproduce your entire post and respond to every point and every question, which you virtually never do yourself. I have answered many of your questions many, many times. You, OTOH, often post just snippets of what I write, and don't respond to questions at all! And yet you accuse me of not being forthcoming in answering your questions! Amazing!

For example, I posted the following list:

Here's what I believe:

1) The future is not fixed.
2) God knows the future perfectly, just as it is.
3) There is nothing which God does not know (which is knowable)
4) God sent His Son at the risk of failture and eternal loss. This is not hyperbole.
5) It was not inevitable, or planned, that sin should occur.

My understanding is that you believe the following:

1) The future is fixed.
2) Even though the future is fixed, we still can choose to do what we want.
3) God did not take a risk in sending His Son.
4) Sin was inevitable.
5) God is the author of sin.

You do not seem to realize that 1) and 2) contradict each other. That is, they are mutually exclusive.

I'd be interested if you agree with my understandings of what you believe.
(end of what I posted)

You said you would respond to this list, but never did. I've been trying for weeks to get you to acknowledge the self-evident fact that reality can be no different than how God perceives it to be with no success.

The reason I've been so careful in my responses to you is because you have so eggregiously misrepresented what I've said in the past. I'm just trying to minimize the damage.