Thank you, Herold. I started checking into this question, and I do not know if I have the final answer yet. It appears to me like this is a notion he gets from non-SDA evangelists.

When these men have had such success in introducing such ideas from other churches and have it accepted by so many of the "saints" - such as that male headship idea, it is not surprising they also little by little try to get us to change more of our standard views on prophetic fulfillment.

I fear this might increase until many of the devout saints in our church are prepared to accept major changes in our beliefs.

We must stay close to the Lord Jesus Christ in prayer and study of His word.

It doesn't.

The pioneer understanding just shows the pioneers didn't seem to think EGW's calling him an "angel" limited the 24 elders to actual angels.

To many Bible student this matter seems clear as crystal because chapter 5 keeps defining one or more of those elders. In verse 9 we are told:



Only the redeemed sinners can sing that new song, and the text states that they are redeemed. Only sinners in our world are redeemed.

But Johann, the 24 elders hold the golden censers of their worlds and our high priest, Jesus our elder since his resurrection after Adam fell, holds the golden censer for our world.

It was on the day of Pentecost that Jesus was found worthy to open the seals, and at the end of the seals the 144,000 sing the new song. You are looking at this scene like it happens all in the same moment, but it is an all encompassing statement from the time of His ascension, through opening the seals, to the last seal, not just one scene in history.

You need to see the whole text for its full content, look...

Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Hold right there; so Jesus ascends to heaven and is found worthy, and the 24 elders are already there. So they must be not from this earth because there had not been 24 people redeemed from earth yet.

Continue...

9 And they (the saints whose prayers are ascending through the golden censers) sung a new song saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Who sings the new song, the unfallen beings, the saints who were redeemed at the resurrection of Jesus who arrived with Jesus, OR is it the ones who make up the 144,000?

"They sing the new song before the throne, that song which no man can learn save the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. “These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.” Revelation 14:4, 5.622 {CCh 353.4}

So the 144,000 sing the new song, no one else. The 144,000 have not yet been manifest to us so how could it be that they are from the mini resurrection? This part of the scene has not yet happened.

So the argument you just put forward does not compute, savvy?

The 24 elders are the created son's of God, the elders of their planets who offer the prayers of their saints through the golden censer given to each ADAM like creature. The new song is sung by men from our planet that have not yet been manifested so it a future event there.

The 144,000 come from our planet and they sing the new song, no one else. So with this information how does your logic work?

And all the true bible students you spoke of, do they have the same flawed logic?

Where does this idea originate, and where is the support for it?

I can find it neither in Scripture nor EGW's writtings, so it is clearly neither biblical nor SDA.

And you provided so much scriptural evidence to support your railing accusation against the conclusion didn't you?

I provided scriptural evidence I only hear a thus saith JAK from you.

I will also stay with the Bible and the general view of the Seventh-day Adventist church.

Really? Show me a direct quote from Ellen White that supports your theory?

I debated this issue with Pastor Stephen Bohr and dozens of other pastors and he now has changed his mind and believes the same way I do on this issue. Even though he would probably say I had nothing to do with it.

Watch his new video called the 24 elders http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3yYvwv8r0Y

Here is the study guide http://secretsunsealed.org/Downloads/24Eldersweb.pdf

Excerpts from the study guide;

"We need to understand that in Revelation 5 the angelic host is distinguished from the 24 Elders"

They are seated on thrones, therefore they are rulers. But where are they rulers?
 They have crowns on their heads, they are kings (Though generally the word stefanos is used to
describe the crown one who has gained a victory, there are exceptions. See for example
Matthew 27:29; Mark 15:17; John 19:2; Revelation 14:14)
 They are robed in white garments of light
 They are creatures (Revelation 4:10, 11)

There is the throne [Revelation 4:2], and around it the rainbow of promise [Revelation 4:3]. There are cherubim and seraphim [Revelation 4:6-8]. The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds [Revelation 4:4] are assembled. The heavenly council before which Lucifer had accused God and His Son, the representatives of those sinless realms over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,--all are there to welcome the Redeemer. They are eager to celebrate His triumph and to glorify their King.

The 24 elders are not cherubim nor seraphim because these two groups are distinguished from the 24 elders (Revelation 4:4, 10)

 They are not part of the angelic hosts because the angelic hosts are clearly distinguished from them (Revelation 5:12). As we have seen, the 24 elders were present in heaven (Revelation 4:4) before the angelic hosts arrived with Jesus.

They are not members of the unnumbered host of the redeemed. This is made evident by the fact that one of the elders asked John about the identity of the great multitude that no man could number ‘from every nation, kindred, people and tongue’ (Revelation 7:13). It is rather obvious that the elder would not ask about the identity of the great multitude if he belonged to it.

Revelation 5:9, 10 seems to indicate that the elders sing the song of their redemption “from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.” But Revelation 7:13 distinguishes one of the elders from the great multitude that was redeemed from “all nations, and kindreds, and people and tongues.” (Revelation 7:9). This clearly proves that the translation of Revelation 5:9, 10 in the King James Version is incorrect.

The 24 elders are not part of the 144,000 because the 144,000 are distinguished from them (Revelation 14:3)

The 24 elders are not those who will resurrect in the special resurrection (Daniel 12:2) just before the second coming because the 24 elders were already in heaven when Jesus ascended (Revelation 4:4)

The 24 elders are not those who will resurrect in the general resurrection because they were in heaven when Jesus ascended (I Thessalonians 4:15-17)

The 24 elders are not those who resurrected with Jesus because the 24 elders were already there before Jesus arrived (Revelation 4:4)

Conclusion: They are neither angelic nor human (from earth). They must be some other order of being.

Then he goes on to prove the exact same things I have stated before. You guys got to quit acting like you are the brain trusts of our faith. There is no official sda standing on this issue because Mrs White never said directly who the 24 elders are. This is exactly what I argued for years with elders of our denomination and finally someone pulled their head out! I'm glad it was Pastor Bohr who could get the message to the most people, even though it is not a salvation issue it proves I was motivated by the correct Spirit here. Thank you Father.

Desire of Ages puts the scene perfectly;

"There is the throne, and around it the rainbow of promise. There are cherubim and seraphim. The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled. The heavenly council before which Lucifer had accused God and His Son, the representatives of those sinless realms over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,—all are there to welcome the Redeemer. They are eager to celebrate His triumph and to glorify their King. {DA 834.1}

Every one of the children of God have an angel. How much more do the created Adams have Strong angels?

Adam was our elder. The oldest of our tribe. Then he fell and Satan usurped the place of elder, or representative of earth.

Then Jesus came and took that title away from Satan.

Now we have Michael as our representative and elder. When the earth is made new Adam will be restored to his previous position.

The 24 elders are the first created being of each tribe who never fell. They are also considered angels/ messengers for their people. They hold the golden censer filled with the righteousness of Christ just like Jesus/ Michael does in heaven for us now.

Now there's a thought. Before sin did each have an angel? If so, would that angel(s) not be with them? So if the 24 elders came to this periodic meeting of accounting in Job, would not their angels be with them? And then one could easily speak of the angels of god presenting themselves and also include the 24 elder representatives?